THE BEARING THAT HEAVEN HAS ON THE DISPENSATION
Luke 3: 21-22
Acts 7: 54-60; 10: 10-16
2 Corinthians 12: 1-4
NJH I would like to speak together as to the bearing that heaven has on this dispensation. It commences with this mighty action of God in opening the heavens, first on the Lord Jesus. The heaven was opened! Being a companion of Paul, Luke would write with the assembly in view. We see the blessedness of this praying Man, Jesus, which is peculiar to Luke’s gospel, and the Spirit descends on Him, a feature that should mark the dispensation, that we appreciate the Father’s infinite delight in Christ in marking Him out.
In Acts Stephen saw the heavens opened; he would see Christ where He is, another truth that is meant to lay hold of those of the assembly - Christ where He is. And then Peter gets an impression, the heaven was opened there; and he would see the true place of the assembly. Whilst the sheet is not exactly a glorified thought it is taken up after it had descended three times and it remained in heaven. The assembly’s position, dear brethren, is heavenly.
And finally the apostle Paul was caught up. What was given to the apostle was in a sense peculiarly for himself. God had been pleased to reveal His Son in him (Gal 1: 16); that was for the preaching of the glad tidings, the Word of God, but you get some special touch that the atmosphere of heaven came through in Paul’s ministry. Therefore, I think that when God goes to such a length to open the heavens in these three cases He has got something particularly in mind for this family. I wonder if we could converse together in a brotherly way to draw from it, and draw our young people into it too. It is not just another church that is being formed by the Spirit; it is not something slightly better where people get on together, which we hope they do, but it is actually an atmosphere that is heavenly. There should come in to the local assembly that which is different, which is heavenly. That brings up exercises, because in the early centuries, probably about the third century, the heavenly aspect of the assembly was lost and that was because they gave up the purification by the water from the side of Christ. They did not maintain purity here, and therefore they lost the essential divine thought for the assembly that was heavenly.
JRW I am sure that it will lift our thoughts and hearts above what might occupy us here, and give us a link with what is heavenly which would strengthen us. The scripture that you started with, referring to the Lord Jesus Himself, has been going through my mind as you have been speaking; He says in John, “no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven” (chap 3:13), and then he finishes by saying, “the Son of man who is in heaven”, which would really support what you are saying as to what is heavenly, but perhaps something that can be enjoyed down here.
NJH Yes, exactly. It is not only that He was of heavenly character, but He never ceased to be heavenly. I think that is very precious to remember, that divine things are never brought down to this world’s level, but persons are secured out of it. That is what struck me, persons have been redeemed with heaven in mind. Redemption for Israel was in God’s mind; they proved the protection of the blood, the Passover lamb, and they are going out of Egypt and through the Red Sea. But Moses laid hold of it in his song, Exodus 15. The final thought was that there is an objective in the divine mind in redeeming His people.
JW Was the heaven opened in Luke 3 to express its delight and pleasure in Christ? I wondered if that is confirmed by the Holy Spirit descending upon Him and the voice coming out of heaven.
NJH It was the first assertion as to heaven being opened. There was now Someone in place that the blessed Holy Spirit could come down on restfully. There was never such on earth before; God looked for it, there was not even one! And here is a Man praying; Luke’s gospel is very precious; it is the priestly gospel, and it says, “having been baptised and praying”: what a delight to the Father! And He asserts His power, opens the heavens; it as if He says, ‘I have got one Man here, a blessed Man, who can be anointed by the blessed Holy Spirit’.
PJW I was wondering if you could say a little more as to prayer, because in the first three scriptures the three persons were praying.
NJH Prayer is our access to the presence of God. I think we should be praying more. And God sees that! He says as to Saul of Tarsus, “behold, he is praying”, Acts 9: 11. There is more record of Paul praying than of any other apostle. It was an attitude of prayer that Saul of Tarsus was in.
PJW So it was characteristic?
NJH Yes, I think so, a praying man.
DAB Are you thinking that, when we speak about prayer, it is not only that we are seeking access to the presence of God, but prayer also brings God in. does it not, or I might say brings God down into the situation where His people are?
NJH Yes, that was what happened here. The Lord Jesus was praying and the heavens were opened. It was not after He prayed but it was as He was in that attitude of prayer that He brought God into the matter. Have you got more to say?
DAB I was reflecting on how precious it must have been to God to have the prayers of Jesus going in: the prayer going in brought God out!
NJH Yes, what He covered we are not told. In this gospel He prayed all night before the choice of His apostles (chap 6: 12, 13); think of that, spending a night in prayer, going over each one. Think of the holy emotions between Christ and the Father, going over the eleven and then speaking about Judas, who He knew from the beginning would deliver Him up. He spent the night in prayer, dear brethren; how could you sustain that? But He could! The piety of Christ was unique, and here immediately the heavens were opened; I think it is the power of God to identify the uniqueness of Christ, the praying Man, and the blessed Spirit descended, the Person of the Spirit descended.
PM Was it the first time there was a Man in total accord with heaven? There was nothing to hinder.
NJH Yes, and “the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily form as a dove upon him”. It was the first time that the Spirit had been seen. We know of course He is never incarnate, but it is “as a dove”. It is something special, the embodiment of the Spirit coming on Christ; He was so precious to God that He opened the heaven.
PM In this setting the Spirit is not sent; He could not help but come!
NJH Yes, and later it says He fell, the same word as Luke 15: “the Holy Spirit fell” on them in Cornelius’s house (Acts 10: 44); and the Spirit was delighted. But here in Luke 3 you might say with holy reverence that you can refer to the emotions of the Spirit, that He could not withhold coming upon this blessed Man who was praying; the reference is, “baptised, and praying”.
RHB He is distinguished in Corinthians as “the heavenly one”, but the apostle goes on to speak of “the heavenly ones”, 1 Cor 15: 48. You have said what the saints are in the mind of God, but help us as to answering to that in practicality, what brings heavenly character into expression. I suppose we may be conscious of not being up to our heavenly calling when we should be.
NJH Well, I would say the first thing is you are dependent on the Spirit, because the Spirit brings what is heavenly into the saints. I believe the heavenly side is formed in the saints by the Spirit; He comes from heaven, and He leaves with the assembly. But I think what was said already about prayer opens the whole matter for us. Christ did not need the anointing; it did not change Christ personally. He did not need baptism although He identified Himself with the faithful remnant; how gracious of the Lord. The anointing changes us, and we need it so that the right order of man is presented in testimony, the new man, but I think that is how it comes.
RHB That was said to the saints at Corinth, “such as the heavenly one, such also the heavenly ones”; the conditions that he had written about in Corinth were anything but heavenly, but he reminds them of what they were in the mind of God, and labours to bring that about in practical expression.
NJH I think as you are occupied with what is heavenly you will become changed. When you sit down at the Supper and you look round the brethren there you think of all that they have come through in faithfulness to Christ, the suffering that has entered into every heart, because they are already heavenly before the Lord comes in. The Spirit is in persons, forming them after Christ; He is forming Christ in us, and I think prayer will get you away from being occupied with yourself, and through prayer you realise you have a link with what is above. That is what Stephen had. Stephen could say, “receive my spirit”. You say you are not equal to that. Stephen laid hold of that thought; he says, “receive my spirit”; he was in complete accord with Christ where He is. Now that is where we are brethren. It is said that Mr Stoney rose up in the room in Park Street in London and said, ‘Brethren, you are heavenly; act like it! We are heavenly, act like it brethren!” (see also JBS vol 2 p246). And I think if we get occupied with the opened heavens it will help us.
DJW I thought it was interesting that the one hundred and twenty in the upper room, “gave themselves all with one accord to continual prayer”, Acts 1: 14. That was the company upon which the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost and it sets the dispensation forward.
NJH Yes, they were ready for it. We are not dependent enough. Prayer is an evidence of dependence. You cannot do things of yourself; you are not able for them, but you are dependent, you pray, and God comes in. Every heart should go back to the last experience that it had, when God came in through prayer.
JRW It says of those persons that were converted at the beginning, “they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers”, Acts 2: 42. That really supports what we are saying.
NJH That is good! It is clear that not only the beginning of the dispensation in Acts 1 was marked by prayer, but in Acts 2 the continuance requires prayer, and that is making room for God to come in, dear brethren. There are a lot of burdens; we need God to come in.
JBI It seems as if this was a continuation of the prayer, that the communication was from the Father to the Lord Jesus Himself, “Thou art my beloved Son”.
NJH Yes; “praying” is present tense; that helps. It would come through in testimony to them too, “This is my beloved Son”, Matt 3:17. But here it is just confirmation to that perfect obedient life. The greatest weapons that Jesus had were His dependence and obedience.
QAP The Lord Jesus tells us in Matthew 5 that the heaven is the throne of God, v 34. Does the thought of rule, and the love of God and blessing in government too, help us in our understanding of it?
NJH In Daniel, “the heavens do rule”, chap 4: 26. The earth was His footstool there, was it not? So the idea of rule is there; it controls everything, and while the world goes on independent of God, and because it is independent and lawless in the sight of God, we want to be a dependent people and an obedient people here; and I think this is the way to it.
DB When Daniel knew that the writing was signed he went in to pray, “as he did aforetime”, Dan 6: 10. It was not something he commenced just when he needed help; it was characteristic of him.
NJH Exactly, and it was three times a day. That is a good thing! I know the value of it. It is good to commit yourself to prayer three times a day, morning, noon and night. You have got your family prayer, but your own prayer has to be maintained to be here dependent on God, and as has been said, to bring God in.
DAB God has always maintained His right to administer to the earth. I was thinking of “the bread of heaven” (Ps 105: 40), for example. There is an unbeliever in the Old Testament who says, “if Jehovah should make windows in the heavens” (2 Kings 7: 2), as if there were not any, but there are! I like what you say; now the heavens are opened for the Spirit Himself to come.
NJH Yes, the Spirit comes down, and there is the power now to maintain all that comes in through the opened heavens; that is what I understand. And I want to get the gain of that.
AJMcK Does heaven remain open?
NJH Hebrews has been referred to as ‘the book of the open heavens’, JT vol 61 p76. In principle it is open to us; the trouble is we do not use that access as we should but the access is available. It is God that opens it.
AJMcK I was just thinking about the Spirit coming; the Spirit is still here, and you cannot think that heaven will be closed on a scene where the Spirit is dwelling. And I wonder whether what we are saying as to prayer really brings it in to relationship with an already opened heaven because what Stephen says is, “I behold”; he sees it.
NJH Yes. And that is in the face of the rejecters, those that were guilty of the crucifixion of Christ, and are now rejecting the testimony of Him glorified. Stephen was in liberty with what was in heaven. I think that is very beautiful.
PJW In connection with that, in Matthew 11 it says, “Jesus answering said”, (v 25), and it has been asked what He was answering. But it has been said that He was in constant communion; there was always something from the Father, and He “answering said, I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth”. I was thinking about what has been said as to the heavens always being opened, and it is a question of whether we take advantage of it by constant communion. Mr Darby said, ‘I dread great activity without great communion’, Collected Writings vol 16 p240. It is a test, is it not?
NJH Yes, that is it exactly; it is only opened to dependence and for communion. If I have got my own mindset and opinions, this has the effect that heaven is not opened to me, but the principle is there, and it is a wonderful thing. The heavens were closed to the wise and prudent; you could tell that from Matthew 11; the wise and prudent did not have access to the heavens, but they are open to those that are dependent and looking to God, and He will surely answer that request.
RJF Does the veil of the temple teach us about access to heaven? At the time that the Lord died, it was rent in two from top to bottom (Matt 27: 51), and that gives an illustration of the way that God shines out in love. He is able from His eternal habitation to shine out in love. But now we have access “through the veil, that is, his flesh”, as Hebrews brings out, chap 10: 20. So that there is that which is opened and that which we are able to go through in the power of Christ.
NJH Yes, that is an interesting reference. Of course in one sense we go in because of Christ’s Person rather than His work, but His work remains, and it was the basis for God to come out. What was shut up to Israel is now open. God was justified first by the death of Christ, and He came out, so the veil was rent, and this gives liberty; “through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father”, Eph 2:18. I think we should just lay hold of the kingdom of the heavens; for us that means Christ where He is, and the Spirit here; so there is a whole area of things opened up for us, but it is opened to the state of the individual. I am not saying the local assembly does not know it, but it is available, it is there; God has come out, and it is for those that come into the good of it. I think, by showing this praying attitude, dependence on God.
DJW You said at the outset that the Lord Jesus was always the heavenly Man, although coming into manhood. Now this statement in Luke 3 is before His public service: “Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight”, so that He was always in communion with heaven. Is that how a heavenly man operates here?
NJH Yes, that is right. Why do you make the difference? You were saying it is before the Spirit comes down.
DJW I wondered if heaven took account of His private life, speaking reverently, how He was from day to day. It was a delight to heaven to have that kind of dependent Man here.
NJH Exactly, and we know very little of the first thirty years, but there is just a small window open to show the perfection of the natural growth, at twelve years old, the perfection of it. But it was always a dependent manhood. He trusted in God from His mother’s breasts, (Ps 22: 9); how dependent that order was. It was unique!
MJC The oblation was mingled with oil before it was anointed with oil, was it not, Lev 2: 5, 6? There is a sense in which the Spirit of God indwelt Christ from the time when He was here, but then He descended publicly upon Him at the beginning of His service, did He?
NJH Yes, I think the anointing is primarily a Levitical touch, but you need the Spirit for serving; so He took that place. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit; it was a holy manhood, perfect manhood; it was all a oneness of perfection! What can you say about it! Beautiful contemplation! But He went that way for public service; He was anointed. As we know in one gospel He waits until John the baptist completes his testimony before He comes in Himself; that was the diligence to follow the Levitical role: I think it is very beautiful. And here He is an order of man that is special; the anointing did not change Him; He was perfect through and through, the mingling was there. But with us we need that the anointing, otherwise we will come out in the wrong spirit, we will say hard things, we will be marked by the wrong things that are not in keeping with a heavenly man. But I think if the Spirit is made room for it will change what is expressed amongst us. Why should we have as in Galatians, the attitude of biting and devouring, Gal 5: 15? It is not in keeping with the anointing. We must be faithful, but we should not be ostracised for being faithful; we must be faithful, but everything should be done in the spirit of the anointing.
JW Would it be right to say that God will only anoint what is of this character of manhood now? The Spirit does not come upon the flesh, does He? The things you mentioned are things of the flesh; the anointing can only be identified with what is of this character of manhood.
NJH Yes. The anointing could not come directly on the flesh; it was on the blood. The blood was put on the ear, the thumb of the right hand, and the great toe, Lev 8. The whole person was affected by the death of Christ, the redemptive, powerful effect of the way Christ went and it is only on the blood that the oil was placed; so it is not after what I am but what Christ is. There was the spirit of obedience marking them; at the beginning they were obedient, they were praying, and God answered that in the coming of the Spirit.
KJM Yes; I think that is very helpful. I have been thinking as you have been speaking as to faith, that that underlies it. You speak of a heavenly view, and what is heavenly, but we need faith to apprehend that. I was thinking of Abraham, he waited for a city, (Heb 11: 10); he saw something that was outside his present circumstances, but it lifted him to something that God would have in mind for him, v 13.
NJH Yes, that is good. Abraham is a great type; young people should look at the history of Abraham and Lot and find out what motives they had, who received the promise, who received communications. Well, Abraham got it, and he had faith, he laid hold of it; so we need to do that.
Just to go back a moment to where we were speaking about the Spirit, it is clear that when you receive the Spirit God puts you “in Christ”; so right away that settles your heart. You cannot work up to things; Israel tried to work up to things but only got so far, then the Levites got a bit further, and then the priests got a bit further again: in Christianity you start from the top! When you get the Spirit you are put in Christ - I think that is wonderful - and the Spirit comes here, and He forms that order of man in me. I need formation, but I am already placed there; that is to be laid hold of us, brethren!
JW Is the anointing something further than receiving the Spirit?
NJH Why do you say that? You are applying it to us?
JW Well, I was thinking it was possible to have the Spirit, but it may not be that the anointing is in evidence. The anointing is more a public thing, is it not? Is the Spirit put upon a person? You might receive the Spirit but the anointing is the evidence of the Spirit being upon a person, a person’s movements in the power of the Spirit, do you think?
NJH There is a difference between the Spirit as God’s gift and our receiving the Spirit, but I would think it would be normal, if you are in a state to receive the Spirit, that you would come out in that character, the anointed character. It is public as you point out; it is something that is seen. When the leper was anointed he would go back through the tribes; they would look at him, and there would be a shine about him. He was anointed, and he was making his way through the tribes; so it would be something that would be seen outwardly. But I think it would be normal that if a person had received the Spirit that he would come out in that character.
JW I think that would be normal, yes. I was just thinking the Corinthians had the Spirit but there was not very much evidence of the anointing, was there?
NJH No, there was not. I know we have to accept we are in Corinthian conditions, but I do not like to accept that as normal. I think we might have Corinthian conditions where there is mixture and the mind of Christ is not laid hold of. The mind of Christ was there, but they did not use what was available.
JW I think we have to keep to what is normal, but these things are not necessarily automatic. I know that Paul referred to the Corinthians as the anointed vessel, the assembly; that was the divine thought for them.
NJH Well, they had the Spirit; the Scriptures are written particularly for those that have the Spirit.
PM Does Stephen show us what is normal? He was full of the Holy Spirit; there was nothing to hinder the Spirit, and it came out in the features of the anointing in the public expression.
NJH It seemed normal at the beginning; it says of some that they were full of the Holy Spirit. We should be exercised to be moving towards that; nothing of self, nothing of the flesh, occupation entirely with what we are having today, heaven, where Christ is.
PM Is it not so that the more place I give to the Holy Spirit inwardly the more there will be the expression of the anointing publicly?
NJH That is right exactly. It is full sway: He is not grieved.
RHB You said that when you receive the Spirit we are placed in Christ. Is it also true that, when we receive the Spirit, Christ is placed in us? I was thinking of the reference that Paul makes to the Corinthians. We have been speaking about the Corinthians; he says to examine themselves “that Jesus Christ is in you”, 2 Cor 13: 5. I thought in this passage you read as to Stephen what comes out is the Spirit of Christ in him, not only looking into heaven but praying for the forgiveness of those who were murdering him.
NJH Yes; they “saw his face as a face of an angel”, chap 6: 15. There was something heavenly there, something of heaven shining out, which is why the Spirit has come, to form that order of man in the saints. He must do it!
RHB It is a very profound thing that that Man in all His perfection, of whom you have been speaking, should come into the character of the believer. I just wonder whether the immensity of that has laid hold of my own soul.
NJH Exactly, and that is why I said that it was a powerful operation on behalf of God to show what was intended that the Spirit should come.
AM In the passage in Luke, and in this one, He is referred to as the Holy Spirit, truly contrary to all that we are as nature; but there is that formed in Stephen which He could relate to.
NJH That is good, because it is entirely opposite to the moral conditions around and, we have to admit, the moral conditions which are in ourselves. Through divine work we are transformed. The emphasis is on the Holy Spirit.
JRW I just wondered if you had more in mind as to the detail that comes out here; “having fixed his eyes on heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God”. He saw the heavens opened, and saw the Son of man standing at the right hand of God. Do you have any impression of the detail of what was there in heaven?
NJH Do you not think that was divine grace in testimony to the Jew; in the Son of man standing? At first he says, “the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God”; what confirmation of what is there! That dear man was about to lose his life here in the world, but he commits his spirit to the Lord: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit”. I think what you say about the detail is interesting: He is the Son of man; He is available to all as the Son of man.
DAB Has it been said that he was standing ready to return?
NJH Yes; you mean if Israel received Him?
DAB Yes; He is not presented as sitting as later on. I am only thinking how available heaven is. It might be said that the people were in such a dark state, and yet the grace of heaven is manifested even in the posture that the Son of man has!
NJH Yes, good, in His readiness to act. Oh, the feeling of heaven! Oh, if only Israel would change! The guilt of the death of Christ upon them, the wonderful grace of God was towards the nation, God in grace follows the Jew through the Acts. Finally, the Lord is viewed as sitting, and He is waiting now in this wonderful dispensation in which the assembly is formed.
JBI I was just thinking of the detail, he “fixed his eyes on heaven”; there was the gnashing of teeth going on all around him, but he “fixed his eyes on heaven”. Would that help us now that we must have our eyes fixed on heaven?
NJH Yes. It is away from everything else according to Hebrews 12; you look unto Jesus and you look away from everything else, v 2 note d. I think generally we would accept that we need to fix our eyes and find that there is a whole order of things that God wants to reveal to us - Jesus where He is!
RMB When he describes what he saw he does not refer to the glory of God does he? What would you say about that?
NJH He says, “the right hand of God”. It is establishing the position that Jesus has now, because the world had not seen Him after the cross. His own saw Him after resurrection, but the world never did, Israel never did; but here God opens the heavens to give this testimony. It was a final testimony to the nation because they rejected a humbled Christ, and now they rejected an exalted Christ. They are very responsible; so He is at the right hand of God. He is in another scene where He is accepted, the Man has arrived, Christ where He is; that is wonderful to our hearts.
RMB When it speaks about what he saw, he saw two things, “the glory of God and Jesus”, but when He describes what he saw he refers only to the Son of man, because that was the new thing, was it not? The Jews would not be surprised to know that the glory of God was in heaven, but the new thing was that there was a Man there.
NJH Exactly, as Son of man He is available to all. What a Saviour!
RMB I thought the point that you made earlier as to the consequences of receiving the Holy Spirit is worth underlining particularly in connection with the question as to how we become heavenly practically, because it seems to me that it is a great moment of realisation when we understand that as a consequence of having received the Holy Spirit I am united to the Lord Jesus where He is; that is a tremendous matter is it not to lay hold of.
NJH Yes, because in the death of Christ new links are formed. In the Jordan, our natural links are broken; now our link is with Christ where He is.
RMB You referred in your opening remarks to what is distinctive to this dispensation; that is completely new, is it not? To think that as a consequence of receiving the Holy Spirit I am united to the Man who is at the right hand of God ought to have a profound effect on my walk and ways.
NJH So the mystery, that is Christ above and the body here, was actually true at the beginning of the Acts, but the truth gradually came out. Saul of Tarsus got something into his soul at this point which became formed when Christ spoke to him directly in chapter 9, but I think we should see this whole order of things is now proceeding: the opening of heaven had a dispensational view.
QAP In John 5, the Lord Jesus says that He has been given authority to execute judgment because he is Son of man (verse 27); but I wondered if what Stephen says here as to the Son of man would have been a comfort to him. Paul elsewhere refers to the Lord as “the righteous Judge”, 2 Tim 4: 8. Stephen was in extreme suffering at this point, but he had a view of Christ that would have reassured him, do you think?
NJH Yes, exactly, and then Christ was the Man that has been appointed to rule the habitable world; He is already set according to the mind of God to take over the control and rule of the whole universe.
In chapter 10 Peter beholds the heaven opened. It says in verse 9, “Peter went up on the house to pray, about the sixth hour”; praying came in again. And then the heavens were opened, “he beholds the heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending, as a great sheet, bound by the four corners and let down to the earth”; it happened three times and it was taken up. He needed this view of the assembly. We have rich thoughts as to the body of Christ and the assembly. On Lord’s day morning we were looking on the glory of Christ, the brilliant glory of Christ; and then as we were taken up with that we found that the assembly was in glory also with Christ, and that is a terrific thing to think of! Well, that is not exactly what we have here, but the sheet was still taken up to heaven; it was for Peter’s help that he had this view, that cleansing had to take place. But on Lord’s day morning you get a sense of the one that can be united to Christ in glory, and that is a very blessed thought, very wonderful.
AJMcK In this section, the note to the word “behold” says ‘view with attention’; can you open that up in the light of what we said about Stephen fixing his eyes? Help us please as to how we fix our attention on this.
NJH I am glad you mentioned that because it comes back to Hebrews 11 as the great faith chapter, and all the individuals that are there express faith. Then we come to “the leader and completer of faith”, that is, Jesus, and it says, “looking stedfastly”, (chap 12: 2); the note is ‘looking away from other things and fixing the eye exclusively on one’. It is worthwhile to have your vision exclusively on this Person. There is nobody greater in the universe. God has put rule in the most attractive Person in the universe! The Person that will rule the world to come can rule my life now, and He is so great that the more I look at Him the more I am changed: I absorb something of “the glory of the Lord”, 2 Corinthians 3: 18. Now Peter is viewing with attention this heavenly vessel.
JRW Sometimes it is good to consider things that are repeated in the Scripture; it is good to read about the way Paul repeats his account of his conversion. When Peter recounts this matter, he says first of all, “it came even to me”, Acts 11: 5. The blessing of what had happened had laid hold of him, and maybe that is something we should each take to ourselves as we are speaking over these things, that these things have come “even to me”; but then he says, “having fixed mine eyes, I considered”, v 6. So he contemplated what had come before him, and do you think there is blessing and formation in that?
NJH Yes, “having fixed mine eyes I considered”. I suppose Daniel was marked by that; the visions that came to him he considered. If you are reading scripture or ministry, if something strikes you God is working. Peter is considering; he fixes his eyes and could say, “I considered”.
PJA It says in verse 19, “But as Peter continued pondering over the vision, the Spirit said to him”. I just thought it linked on with what you were saying, the Spirit coming in.
NJH Yes, that confirms us. I say to the dear young people, the Spirit of God is working in the hearts of persons who are simply opening the Word, or reading the ministry; He will confirm it in your own soul.
DAB There is something very practical about this, is there not? The Holy Spirit spoke to Peter about the diversity in the sheet. Diversity bothers us naturally; it creates a lot of friction and difficulty, quite apart from the sort of religious difficulty Peter had. But we need to ask the Holy Spirit to speak to us about these things so that we realise that “we being many are one loaf” (1 Cor 10: 17); our view should change.
NJH I think what you say is right; there was diversity, but there was nothing common in the sheet: it was all cleansed; that is the effect of the work of Christ. But hold to the thought that God has had to do with these persons, and that the sheet was caught up; it was not left down here for Peter to feed on down here. He was to feed on what was in the sheet: “Rise, Peter, slay and eat”. He could appropriate the saints as worked on by God, but they were still in the sheet. The sheet was drawn up the third time into heaven; nothing fell out. This was to help Peter as to the reception of the Gentiles.
RHB How do we appropriate the saints?
NJH Well, I would say, feed on their good points!
RHB The contents of this sheet were edible; that is the word, “Rise, Peter, slay and eat”. Nothing that God had cleansed would harm him; he could eat it with a good conscience but it would be profitable, would it not? It should exercise us to cultivate the company of heavenly persons.
NJH I would agree with that, but the things in this sheet do not seem like a normal diet. You may get some of these things if you go to some Asian countries, but we do not have this in our diet! But if you start to appropriate what is wrong in your brother you will find that he cannot appropriate what is in you; that is important. We should look for the good things that we can appropriate in one another and eventually we will be able to say, ‘That is Christ’.
PJW And do you think I should be exercised to be palatable to my brethren?
NJH Yes, but these things are harmless. A person without the Spirit does not know what we are talking about when we say we are appropriating one another, but the love for the body of Christ means that there is something in the saints that you can appropriate, and it should be evident in us. We would each be exercised whether we are giving that; are we allowing that edible material, moral material in my soul for the saints to appropriate?
RHB There may be a tendency to feed on, and converse over, what is unprofitable, but there was something that God’s people were not to eat. After God had touched Jacob’s thigh, the children of Israel did not eat of the sinew that was over the thigh, Gen 32: 32. There are things in each of us that have necessitated the discipline of God in His ways with us, and they are inedible and unprofitable to feed upon in ourselves and in others, are they not?
NJH The permitted creatures of Leviticus 11: 21 were the insects that had legs that could leap; the people could eat those that could leap. So there is some evidence in the saint that has got power to leap. They could appropriate the man in Acts 3 because he was leaping; they recognised that there was something springing up in that man’s soul that was not natural and something that they could appropriate. I think that is why the insects that could leap were clean to the Israelite. But there is such a variety; they are not normally in our diet, but to spiritual persons they are lovable: if you love Christ you must love the body of Christ.
MJC It says the man in Acts 3 was “walking, and leaping, and praising God” (verse 8), but the people saw him “walking and praising God”, verse 9. The leaping represents something that was not evident to the natural mind, is that right?
NJH Exactly, and he held on to Peter and John. You might say there were three persons with something springing up in their souls! We should look for the leaping in one another, and that is what we appropriate.
JW I was wondering if Paul really got this view in referring to the Corinthians. He speaks of what they were, but of what God had done (1 Cor 6: 11): He had cleansed them, and I wondered if that is what enabled him to serve the saints in the way he did, by getting that view?
NJH Yes; he had to start from the standpoint of persons that were free in their links, the house of Chloe (1 Cor 1: 11) and so on, who showed him things, but he worked from the standpoint that there was something approved in the place.
JW I was thinking how Paul speaks of what they had been and what they were; but also what they had become, and what God had done: He had cleansed them. I wondered if, having that viewpoint of the saints in Corinth, he was able to serve them effectively as he did, and I wondered if we are to serve one another it is essential to have that view.
NJH Yes, “ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified, but ye have been justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of God”.
DJW So the Holy Spirit would only draw attention to the heavenly Man and draw attention to what is of that Man in the saints.
NJH Exactly, that is all that heaven feeds on. God no longer sees us in flesh: we are in Christ; that is what we are, Rom 8. We have got a new state; that is the wonder of it! It involves a new state in the believer, and God does not look at us any more in the flesh; therefore He is either looking at Christ personally, or what is formed in us by the indwelling Spirit.
DJW Therefore it comes back to the point of how much room I give the Holy Spirit.
NJH Yes; He needs full control.
We will just have a short word on Paul’s experience in 2 Corinthians 12. He is caught up to the third heaven, to that extent, and it is into paradise. It is remarkable that the apostle had such an experience. He had had it fourteen years before; he had kept it that time. Yet it must have fashioned his thinking. He could not tell what he heard; he says that he heard unspeakable things said which is not allowed to man to utter, but it must have had an enormous effect on him that it was an elevation that had not been known. There was not a parallel to it: we cannot go beyond the third heaven, and the devil cannot get in there. Satan cannot get into the third heaven, but the saint can. He is a man in Christ; he is not saying ‘Paul’, or ‘I’ here. We would have to say that Paul was very special, both in his love for Christ and his moral experience here; but it is to the third heaven, reserved for the saints.
JRW Is this experience possible today?
NJH Ah, we would not be able for it! But we know something; we must know a little of it, but this actual fact of caught up to the third heaven, it was fourteen years he carried it. He did not say just two or three weeks ago; it was a special experience he had which was for himself: that is the point. I think this experience was for Paul himself. How could he lead us into the great heavenly truth of Ephesians if he had not something in his own soul of this experience?
JRW Yes, what is open to us is to enter with boldness into the holy of holies by the new and living way, Heb 10: 19. Now I do not know how far that takes us in relation to where Paul went but that is something that is very blessed and open to every believer, is it not?
NJH I always think the holy of holies is moral perfection; that is how I view it; we can prove the immediate presence of God in it. But here it is the third heaven.
RHB Say something about the expression “a man in Christ” in that connection. What does that convey to you?
NJH Well, he says, “I know a man”; it is not ‘the’; it is “a man in Christ, fourteen years ago”. It is the experience he had. I think it is more than association with Christ. We touch that at the service of God: we are associated with Christ, but I think this third heaven involves elevation.
PM He goes on to say that he was caught up into paradise. Could you help us as to the distinction?
NJH Well, the third heaven involves elevation, and paradise is the delightful atmosphere that pervaded the whole matter. What do you think?
PM That is helpful. Our Lord Jesus fills every heaven, but I wondered if paradise would also link with the sphere of complacency with Christ.
NJH Yes, that is a good way to put it. It is given in the promise to the overcomer in Ephesus, Rev 2: 7. But I just think, “whether in the body or out of the body” was a special experience. I know the Spirit’s help is within, and we express ourselves; our bodies are used to express ourselves in the service to God, but “whether in the body or out of the body”: I am not sure that I know anything of that.
DAB It has been pointed out that Paul says nothing about what he saw. We are so easily looking for something to see, are we not? But it is simply what he heard, and I accept what you say about the distinctiveness of this experience, but in a sense if God speaks it has this character, does it? This is the character of heavenly speaking; it has that exclusive power to it.
NJH Exactly; yes, it always has. The apostle had that experience, and he kept it for fourteen years, and then after the experience, “that I might not be exalted by the exceeding greatness of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn for the flesh”, to keep him from being exalted. So there is something very special about this I would think.
MJC This is a very mysterious reference really, because paradise is the part and portion of those who have departed to be with Christ, is it not? As he says “in the body or out of the body I know not”, it was something which was almost indescribable in its intensity and experience. I was thinking of the malefactor, “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise”, Luke 23: 43.
NJH Yes, that was a disembodied state, which Christ was only in for a short while. But it has been said, and I think it is based on this scripture, that love’s communications continue to those that are with Christ; that must be paradise. They cannot enter into the worship of God: that will come. They will receive their body of glory, but up until then there are holy communications between Christ and His own as in paradise.
Maidstone
6th February 2016
Key to Initials:
P J Alexander, Twickenham; D Bailey, Maidstone; R H Brown, East Finchley, R M Brown, East Finchley; D A Burr, London; M J Cook, Folkestone; R J Flowerdew, Sunbury; N J Henry, Glasgow; J B Ikin, Manchester; A Martin, Buckhurst Hill; P Martin, Colchester; K J May, Maidstone; A J McKay, Witney; Q A Poore, Swanage; J R Walkinshaw, Maidstone; P J Walkinshaw, Strood; D J Wright, Havering; J Wright, Witney