THE LORD OF GLORY
1 Corinthians 2: 7-11
1 Kings 4: 1-7, 29-34
2 Corinthians 3: 18
PAG It is in mind for this enquiry that we should seek to get help as to the Lord of glory. The Lord of glory involves an administration of glory. We have often heard that Christianity is a system of glory and if there is to be a system it needs to be administered and regulated. The system of glory is regulated by the Lord of glory. God’s purpose had in mind the glory of the saints, and for us to come into that involves the recognition of the Lord of glory. The princes of this age “crucified the Lord of glory”, (1 Cor 2: 8); the authorities of this age have no place for the Lord of glory. The Spirit would give Him a place in our hearts. Solomon is a type of the Lord of glory, and you see in 1 Kings 4 the extensiveness of his administration and the fact that his wisdom exceeds all else and all others. The names are not in themselves important but rather the offices that are filled out. There is a priest, that is to say, a high priest; there are scribes; there is a chronicler; there is a host (or army), which is for the protection of these things. The thought of priesthood extends further; there were superintendents, those who would take responsibility. There is this special man, the principal officer, who was the king’s friend; as John was the disciple whom Jesus loved.
Then there was the household, or the palace, caring for what is inward, and the levy service, that is to say there was an answer in sacrificial giving by those who were associated with this system of glory. It was organised to provide food for the king and his household, there was something for the king himself and each man in his month of the year had to make provision, to take responsibility according to how it was allocated. But there was one who was over this, and it says he had “very great understanding and largeness of heart”. It is a great thing to have wisdom and love operating together. Much more could be said, but he was able to speak of things in their detail, the whole of creation, the trees and so forth, and all came to him for wisdom.
The end in view of the system of glory is response to God, and response by those and in those who have been made like Christ; “looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face”, they are transformed! A dear brother has often reminded us that the transformation was a permanent change. In the previous reading, a brother was reminding us that the work of God is cumulative, and every touch of the Lord’s glory has a cumulative transforming effect on the saints. That is what I have in mind.
NJH I was struck by 1 Kings 4; “And king Solomon was king over all Israel. And these are the princes whom he had”; so it is all under his control and all serving, contributing to this scene of glory.
PAG That is why I believe it stands in contrast to the princes of this age. They had their own system, and the Lord of glory had no place in it, but Solomon had princes. David had instruments; he made them; that is how things began. The Lord formed us, David made musical instruments (1 Chron 23: 5), and they were useful in the service of song, but Solomon has these persons who are able to take responsibility, but all under his hand.
NJH The instruments that David made continued after his death; they were still in use. Do you think glory comes out in persons?
PAG That is my thought, and what was also in mind was that he made them personally. It says, “the instruments which I made, said David”; he made them personally. The Lord has had to do with each one of us personally, but He wants to bring us into this system of glory in order that we might find our place in it and be responsive to Him in it.
WMP It is “the things of God” in 1 Corinthians 2: 11; “thus also the things of God knows no one”; would that include all that attaches to the Person of the Lord of glory?
PAG That is what I wondered. I was thinking about it before this meeting; “the things of God” is very broad in its scope but things are substantial. The Lord’s glory is substantial, would you say?
WMP I was thinking how much there is to be unfolded in that. The Spirit is available to do that; He is searching in order that it might be so in our hearts.
PAG So the Spirit is able to select. He is not searching because He does not know what is there. We might search for something because we cannot find it, but the Spirit is searching in a selective way in order to bring out what might be most suited to the moment, searching “the depths of God”. It is what God has already done and the Spirit is drawing out from that what would be suitable.
WMP So that is what is needed to give our occasions a living character, that it should be so; “the Spirit speaks expressly”, 1 Tim 4: 1.
PAG We could have read any number of scriptures, but I feel that the Lord and the Spirit direct as to what might be suitable for the moment.
JL It speaks in verse 7 of what “God had predetermined before the ages for our glory”. Our subject is Christ’s glory, but in what way does our glory as predetermined by God contribute to Christ’s glory?
PAG I think it would be right to say that in God’s eyes we have no glory apart from Christ, and in that sense we do not have some glory of our own that is not drawn from Him. We also know from Ephesians 1 that God has “marked us out beforehand for adoption through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will”, v 5. That would involve the glory of sonship and the Lord says, “the glory which thou hast given me I have given them” (John 17: 22); the Lord was given glory to administer in order that we might participate in it. It would be a question whether these Corinthian saints were ready for the full extent of what God had in mind for them, but it was all there nonetheless; it was all available.
JL I was seeking help over that point, and wondering if it had some bearing on the glory of the administration that you are speaking about. Those who form that great administrative system are glorified by God, in order that the One who is supreme above them all should shine in all His complete brilliance as the supreme Administrator and Lord of glory.
PAG I do think that. I would say that any brother or sister who is serving the Lord under His hand is part of this system of glory, and has a glory of their own as a result of that. For example, a sister might lay the table on a Lord’s day morning in view of the Lord’s supper being partaken of; there is glory attaching to that. We are thankful for it! Sisters who serve in a household setting in view of the comfort and refreshment of the saints, there is glory attached to that. We should not underestimate the value that the Lord places on persons who are moving in subjection to Him in order that the saints might be comfortable.
GMC I was just wondering if the Lord of glory, and that title, is particularly in relation to what is precious to God. It is not exactly the glory of creation, but it is something that God values; the princes of this world would have no understanding of that.
PAG We have been taught that in the divine system of glory is really the outshining of love (JT vol 12 p259), and God’s love lies behind this administration of glory. His love rests complacently on Christ, and we can say straightforwardly that the Lord is delighted to administer divine love in order to make it known to us, to make it good in our souls by the Spirit. The glory of God is shining in the face of Jesus Christ; we know that! We can experience it!
GMC It is really how we worship; we could not worship without owning Him as Lord.
PAG We could not! I have been thinking about that. We might ask if there is some difference between His being Lord and His being Head. He is Lord of all; so He is Lord over all that is created, but He is Head to those who have an association with Him, and it is a nearer and more intimate thought. But we must come via the way of His lordship in order to enjoy His headship. But there is something being set on that displays the love of God and brings it into operation in order that there might be fruitful results for God.
NCMcK There is a system of glory, and the Lord is over that. I wondered if Psalm 24, “Who is this King of glory?” (v 8), is a reflection of that.
PAG Yes, it is! So that glory immediately draws out a response -
Lift up your heads, ye gates,
and be ye lifted up, ye everlasting doors,
and the King of glory shall come in v 7.
There is a place for Him and in that sense the place cannot be withheld. But the fact is that the glory produces a response, and the gates and the doors suggest a system that is operating, a system that is protected as well. Gates and doors involve not only protection but a way in. There is a way in to this system, and we have spoken about faith and the gift of the Spirit; there is a way in to this system.
GBG Is Joseph a type in relation to this Lord of glory? He was over all the food supply and persons had to come to him, and I wonder if you get a touch of lordship and headship with Joseph. It says, “without thee shall no man lift up his hand or his foot in all the land of Egypt” (Gen 41: 44); you could say there is lordship and headship there. It is “without thee”; he was in complete control, and if you lift up your hand and your foot headship has to do with that.
PAG The head controls the movements of the body. He does say, “And tell my father of all my glory in Egypt”, Gen 45: 13. As we have been taught, Joseph is a type of Christ among the Gentiles; he is functioning there, in charge of a system of glory that meets need but also a system that produces response. His name Zaphnath-paaneah (Gen 41: 45) means three things; it means Saviour of the world, and that is often how we come to Him first; it means Sustainer of life, and that is our present salvation; and it means Revealer of secrets, and that is the things prepared by God for those that love Him. He is over it all and it is by the Spirit that we come into it.
GBG There is another reference in the New Testament: in James you get the expression, “the Lord of glory”. The context is interesting: “My brethren, do not have the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, Lord of glory, with respect of persons”, chap 2: 1. It shows what James thinks about having respect of persons. Every believer has “the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ”, and He is the Lord of glory, but he goes on extensively in that chapter about the wrongness of the respect of persons.
PAG Respect of persons is different from respect for persons. We respect one another as brethren, but respect of persons means that we are regarding one person as superior to another on account of some status that we might give them, and, “ye are all God’s sons by faith in Christ Jesus” (Gal 3: 26); in that sense each has the same status. We might have different offices, different responsibilities, that comes in in 1 Kings 4, but we do not have respect of persons in the sense that we do not make judgments based on who a person is. The Lord of glory does not do that. The princes of this age did that; they said, “Is not this the son of the carpenter?”, Matt 13: 55. They did not give the Lord much status because they did not think He was very important, but He never sought importance in this world’s scene. He has a place in heaven that none can surpass.
JL There is a brief statement in Psalm 45 that seems to rise above that: “for he is thy Lord, and worship thou him”, v 11.
PAG Exactly! Respect of persons involves occupation with persons according to what they are naturally; “worship thou him”, involves occupation with the Lord, “for he is thy Lord”. I think “for he is thy Lord” excludes any other object.
RDP I cannot think of any other word, but this is more than efficiency; it is more than things done efficiently and well. I think your reference to Joseph is interesting; it begins with what is basic; he is the Saviour of the world, which brought them out. But then the Sustainer of life and then the Revealer of secrets, this is adding greatness to what he does.
PAG Efficiency is not in itself a sign that something is good; you can do a bad thing efficiently. This system is perfect and the Lord says, “I have come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly”, John 10: 10. This is a system of things where there is abundance of life, and it comes from one source and it is administered by one Man. That Man is Christ, and the access to it is by faith and by the Spirit. So as you rightly draw attention to it is a productive system and a system that is self-sustaining.
JTB The tabernacle and the temple that Solomon constructed was very detailed. Do you think that the Lord of glory oversees that work to ensure that it is consistent with the divine pattern, so that this is not simple efficiency, but efficiency according to God? A feature of the temple was that it was overlaid with precious stones, “and the gold was gold of Parvaim”, 2 Chron 3: 6. How specific it is, and do you think the work that God is doing currently has that in it, has that as an end that there should be something for God’s glory, and the Lord of glory conduces to that?
PAG I think that; so that there was what was precious and, “To you therefore who believe is the preciousness”, 1 Pet 2: 7. There was what was valuable; that is to say the gold and the precious stones, but there was also what was superior. The gold of Parvaim involves a superior kind of gold. Superiority in Christianity is not that we think we are better than other people, but Christianity is superior to anything that the world can offer, and I am not afraid to say it. There is nothing better than being a believer.
AB There is a way into it. The scripture says, “Lord of the heaven and of the earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes”, Matt 11: 25. Would that be the way in?
PAG It involves that we do not exercise our own minds and our own wills in relation to these things. The babe would be subject, and would not assert itself, and what comes out of that is, “Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me”, v 29. We have said often, the Lord does not say, ‘Learn about me’, although that is a good thing to do, but He says, “learn from me”. The recognition of the Lord of glory would involve that we would have a desire to learn from Him how this system should operate.
AMB You are bringing before us the thought of the Lord really giving glory to all that is of Him. When you speak of a system of glory are you encouraging us to think of Christ’s church that is here at the present time? Is that what is before us?
PAG I think so. I hope the word ‘system’ is not to be misunderstood. It is something that functions. We know that the body functions, for example; it has joints of supply, Eph 4: 16. What I have particularly in mind is that persons have a place in this, and each person has something to do in it and it comes under the authority of the Lord of glory.
AMB It would magnify and dignify the assembly to us, would it not? We must be very careful never to claim anything to do with our being the assembly, it would not be right, and it would not be intelligent, but would you would encourage us to look for and to contribute to these glorious features that you are bringing out, and each of us is able to do that where we are set?
PAG What I have in mind is that there is an opportunity to contribute to this, and the assembly is glorious. The Lord will present it to Himself glorious (Eph 5: 27), and it says in Revelation 21, “Her shining”, v 11. So there is glory first for divine Persons, but then for testimony.
QAP When the Lord Jesus was here His glory was veiled but there were moments when it shone through. It says in Cana of Galilee where He turned the water into wine that He “manifested his glory” (John 2: 11), and it was also seen on the mount of transfiguration.
PAG The glory was largely veiled, but I suppose it was supremely seen when He said, “I am he, and they went away backward and fell to the ground”, John 18: 6. The glory could not be resisted, but on account of His subjection as Man it was veiled. But we can look on the glory of the Lord “with unveiled face”. His glory is shining now, it shines for faith, and it will shine for us eternally when we see Him face to face. It is a wonderful prospect!
NCMcK In 2 Corinthians 3 it says, “For if that annulled was introduced with glory”, (v 11), that was the legal system, the law. But now, “much rather that which abides”, it is a whole abiding system that is consequent on the death and resurrection of Christ; it is a glorious system that has been introduced.
PAG It subsists in glory, and at the present time it is maintained in the power of the Holy Spirit. The ministry of the Spirit in that sense is what subsists in glory, and Christ is at the head of it all. I trust it is for our encouragement that it is possible for divine Persons to sustain a system of glory even in the present time.
RDP I was thinking of the children of Israel and their movements. The ark was prescribed to travel in the midst of the camps but there came a point when there was consideration as to how they might find their way through the wilderness when it says, “the ark of the covenant of Jehovah went before them in the three days’ journey, to search out a resting-place for them”, Num 10: 33. I think Mr James Taylor says it moved beyond prescription, vol 46 p514. Is that not something of this character? It is not just a question of getting through, finding a way through, but a touch of glory, a touch of something special.
PAG The glory of the ark as a type of Christ is a wonderful thing and the titles that are ascribed to it. There are a number of titles referred to on the banks of the Jordan, as though at that point the glory was particularly asserted. I would not attempt to list them all, but we have the ark of the testimony, the ark of the covenant, the ark of Jehovah, but sometimes you just have “the ark”, in its uniqueness. And then it is spoken of in relation to Jehovah, “the Lord of all the earth”, Josh 3: 11. The supremacy of the glory is seen so that as the ark approaches the Jordan and all that it speaks of, the glory asserts itself and in that particular movement it is not exactly what is prescribed. But if you think of the Lord, it says of Him that He led His own as far as Bethany, (Luke 24: 50), and then He went up. It was beyond what was prescribed. It speaks of Him as having sung a hymn; He led them out to the Mount of Olives, Matt 26:30, Mark 14: 26. Where would they go then? They would go to a place that no man’s eye could see. There is a wonder in the leading of the Lord of glory.
JAB In the Old Testament the glory was physically visible; so we as believers might think that it was straightforward for the children of Israel, they could actually see this pillar of fire, they could see things that were glorious and there was an effect produced by that. But there is nothing in this dispensation that we can physically see of what you are speaking about. Could you say more for our younger brethren, but for all of us; if we are not really seeing what you are bringing before us, how we can be brought to see it? Our brother referred to the glory; how can we see that more clearly?
PAG It is by faith. We can ask. In the time of the law there was the ark, and it was at the centre. We have been taught that the ark is a type of Christ, but it was behind a veil and the only person who could go beyond the veil was the high priest, and he could only go in once a year and even then there had to be a cloud of incense covering the ark, so “that he die not”, Lev 16: 13. So he could not see the ark because it was covered by a cloud of incense. On the top of the ark there was a mercy-seat and in Romans 3 we read as to the Lord Jesus, “whom God has set forth a mercy-seat, through faith in his blood”, v 25. The ark is not now behind a curtain. The ark is Christ, and Christ is in glory and the way we see Him is by faith. You can see Him when you are here, and you can see Him when you are at school or when you are at university or when you are at home or when you are at work or when you are in your bed at night, simply by asking the Spirit to help you; He will bring Him to your mind. In the darkest night I ever went through the light shone in my heart and the word came, “Who is this King of glory?”. That did not happen by accident. I had gone to bed with no idea what to do or where to turn and the Lord spoke to me. Now that is real, and if you want the Lord to speak to you just ask Him because I know He will. The Lord of glory, the Lord of all the earth, the Lord of all, the One who created all things, the One who gave you your life and breath, how great He is, and yet He will speak to each one of us personally. I do not know if that answers your question. It comes by experience.
NJH The depths of God are in Christ. It is the Spirit that searches; that is not referring to what belongs to deity, it is not inscrutable deity, it is what is in Christ where the depths of God are, is that right?
PAG It is what is prepared and it also involves what is worked out in the souls of the saints. In answer to our brother’s question, I will say this, I can see the glory of the Lord where I am sitting now and so can you; it is in the saints! I would leave this with you, beloved: learn to see the glory of God in every saint. It will help. But to come back to your question, the depths of God cannot be exhausted, but the Spirit can bring them out to us in order that we might understand the substance of this system of glory. These persons in 1 Kings, they were administering things. These things in these days as has been said were real things; for us they are things that we see by faith. But the brothers who take responsibility for the gospel are like the persons spoken of here as superintendents; they are taking a responsibility, but they are doing it under the Lord’s hand; they are administering what He has given them to do.
NJH It says, “except the spirit of the man which is in him”. So, there is a result. I was thinking Moses’ face was shining when he came out; that was because he had been speaking with God, but now in the assembly we see it transferred to the personnel, is that right?
PAG Yes, and our spirits are meant to be affected by some view of this glory; it is meant to change us.
BWL Is that what the queen of Sheba saw? She could take account of Solomon’s men, their deportment, all these things. I suppose it was the functioning system that she came into contact with and that affected her, and she became a contributor herself, 1 Kings 10.
PAG Two things come to mind: first, that Solomon had “his ascent by which he went up” (v 5); a feature of this system of glory is that it leads upwards. The princes of this age led downwards but this system leads upwards. The other feature of the men that the queen of Sheba took account of was that they were happy, v 8. I believe there is happiness to be found in being in the things of God. There is true happiness, and happiness that cannot be taken away from us by circumstances.
DCB The Holy Spirit is referred to as “the Spirit of glory” (1 Pet 4: 14), and I wondered about that generally and also in connection with our brother’s question and your answer. The Spirit of glory resting upon persons is really how the glory is in display at the present time.
PAG The Spirit of glory resting on persons involves on our part that there is a state to receive it. We should desire to be in a state that the Spirit of glory can rest upon us. I know in the setting it is quoted what is protective is involved. It is a striking thing that the Father is the Father of glory; that is to say, He is the source of glory. The God of glory is the One whose operations are glorious. The Lord of glory is the One who administers the system of glory, and the Spirit of glory is the One who makes it good in our souls and forms us in relation to it. Is it not a marvellous thing to think that the whole of the trinity is operating in glory in order to secure an answer for themselves?
DCB I was thinking of Romans 8 where it says, “but whom he has justified, these also he has glorified”, v 30. Then you look at Solomon’s administration and "these are the princes that he had”, that is, persons that are glorified as having their part in Solomon’s administration.
PAG We have spoken of each of us being a son, each of us too is a priest, and each of us should have princely features, that is what the Lord is looking for.
RHB In Ephesians there is a reference to the eyes of your heart and it says “being enlightened in the eyes of your heart, so that ye should know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints”, chap 1: 18. You were referring to what can be seen in the saints but it is connected with the eyes of the heart, is it not?
PAG It means, among other things, that if our affections are engaged then these things become clearer to us.
RHB In one sense we might all like to see something but “the things that are seen”, the scripture says, “are for a time”, 2 Cor 4: 18. Even these Old Testament things that were seen, they were for a time, but the things that are not seen at present with our natural eyes are eternal, and we are exhorted in that passage to look at the things that are not seen. It is a paradox! The scripture indicates that there are other ways of discerning spiritual things, and the affections is a great area rather than simply trying to grasp things mentally; the heart is touched and quickened in relation to them.
PAG The Lord’s word in John 20 is, “blessed they who have not seen and have believed” (v 29); that is the whole of this dispensation. We have not seen the Lord, but we have believed. What have we to believe? John tells us, “these are written that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life in his name”, v 31. What we have to believe in one sense is very simple; we have to believe that Jesus is the Christ, God’s anointed, and that He is the Son of God.
AMB The queen of Sheba heard a report in her own country and she somewhat believed it, enough to make her way to Israel, to see the king on his throne there to enquire of him, and then she was fully confirmed and she becomes a contributor to Solomon’s system of glory. We have to believe a report, and when the report is mixed with faith the heart of the believer is able to appreciate glorious things and take their character from Christ.
PAG I think that! That is why we preach the gospel, so that there is a report that can be believed. The gospel is believable because it is true. The gospel is true, and it comes from God, and it has in mind not just the forgiveness of your sins, but that you might be brought into this system of glory that we are speaking of. And not as an observer, but as part of it!
AGM Do we need to set aside time to enter into the holiest; as when we pray? I was thinking of Hebrews 9 it speaks as to the ark there, “covered round in every part with gold”, v 4. It is only as we ask divine Persons to show us the glory of Christ that we really get it.
PAG What you say about time is important because time is very pressed. The demands of work or family or other things can press upon us but there is a great value in taking time to read and to contemplate and to pray because what you are putting your hand on, what you are putting your mind and your heart to, is infinite. And if you get a taste for it you will grow in your appreciation of it and you will desire to spend more time, and things that maybe seemed important will become less important and more time will be made for the things that really matter, the things that are unseen and eternal.
JBI Does it involve being the king’s friend?
PAG I do think that, but please say more.
JBI It speaks of nearness to Him, in His presence.
PAG You would hardly think of being the king’s friend as being an official position but that is what he is called; he is called the king’s friend. God called Abraham His friend. Would you say that there is room for all of us to be the king’s friend? The Lord has a special place for every single person in His affections. When the Lord died He died for our sins among other things, He bore our sins in His body on the tree, and He bore them individually not in a mass; He bore them individually: that is how He thought of us. He would want us to be in His affections. He would want to be in our affections; that is His desire for us.
JL The scripture in John 15 would bear on it, “Ye are my friends if ye practise whatever I command you” (v 14); that would be coming under the sway of the Lord of glory and then becoming classified as His friends.
PAG I do think that, and I think that these different offices that are mentioned in 1 Kings 4 are filled out by persons who practised what Solomon commanded; they did what he said and that is how this system of glory worked; they took their lead from Solomon and did what he said. There were priests, there were scribes, there were chroniclers, there were persons filling out the responsibilities that they were given and all of that was contributing to Solomon’s place. They provided food for the king and his household. It is wonderful for us to think that in responding to the Lord’s leading and prompting we are providing something for Him.
PJW In John it is touching too that He lays down His life for His friends, chap 15: 13.
PAG It says in John’s first epistle too that “we ought for the brethren to lay down our lives”, chap 3: 16. It means our lives would be devoted to the Lord and to one another. Another question I might ask, and I would ask it of myself, are the brethren our friends? You can find friendship elsewhere but there is nothing like the fact that the brethren are your friends. Not special friends, where you would prefer one brother over another, but they are our friends.
PJW Is it not a special class? “Greet the friends by name”, the apostle says, 3 John 1: 14.
PAG It is wonderful to see brethren and to be able to greet them by name, to know them. The Lord knows every one; He knew all these persons. Solomon knew their names; there is a further list of names from verse 8 and onwards and these names are in scripture for a reason.
HTF I was thinking of John 13; the friend is known to be the nearest.
PAG That is what I feel, and the Lord is great enough to give each one of us a sense of nearness to Him. The world competes for a place, but there is no need to compete for a place in the Lord’s affections. He already has it for you.
DS Do you think Simeon, as taking up the Babe in his arms, could see One who was coming in as Lord of glory, in relation to the Gentile and in relation to Israel, Luke 2: 32? It is a wonderful thing to see the glory of the One who came in such a lowly way, but to see it in the Babe.
PAG And that helps us too in the matter of the eyes of faith, the eyes of our heart. How could a babe be what Simeon said, “mine eyes have seen thy salvation … a light for revelation of the Gentiles and the glory of thy people Israel”, v 30, 32? That could only have been by faith. The Spirit was on the man, but by faith he had an impression of the greatness of Christ, “a light for revelation of the Gentiles”, to bring to light what God had by way of glory in persons like you and me, and Israel whose glory had gone, they had given it up to their own will, “for the glory of thy people Israel”. Israel is coming back into that glory in a day to come; it will not fail. The Lord of glory is able to administer things that men find impossible. Who can recover Israel? He can recover Israel and He will.
GBG Does the Lord of glory have to do with who you are local with? It is not by chance that we are local with one another, or we are in a certain area of brethren; the Lord of glory has seen to it and set us together.
PAG I think that. the twelve superintendents were each to provide “each man his month in the year had to make provision”. In a sense they were ordered by Solomon what they were to do and when, and that involves where we are set. It asks us in Job 38: 31,
Canst thou fasten the bands of Pleiades,
or loosen the cords of Orion?
Dost thou bring forth the constellations
each in its season?
or dost thou guide the Bear with her sons?
Knowest thou the ordinances of the heavens?,
v 31-33
These that are named there are constellations, and if you know where to look in the sky you can still see them, the Pleiades and Orion; you can see them at night in the sky. That was the Lord’s arrangement, that is like the local meetings and, “Knowest thou the ordinances of the heavens?”; it was the Lord that ordered where we are.
GBG If a brother is moved for his work to another place, the Lord of glory might be doing that; He ministers over everything.
PAG There is no better locality for us than the one that the Lord has set us in. Certain brethren might need to move for very good reasons: the Lord is over that, but the Lord has set us where He means us to be. The fact that He has set us in a particular place has in mind that there should be glory.
AMB There is the injunction that “I … have set you that ye should go and that ye should bear fruit” (John 15: 16); that is resulting in glory to Him.
PAG I do believe that. The Lord has so ordered our localities and He will provide what is needed.
RWMcC The view of the constellations that you have spoken of is from the earth, and God was pleased to bring that to Job’s attention. I wondered if the view of the saints as set together in the different localities is really the Lord viewing it from the earth; it is from our viewpoint.
PAG It is, but it forms something that is pleasing to Him and can be named. When I think about your locality I do not think about the town but I think about the local brethren in their households; the brethren in the place are what comes to mind. So we are seeing things from God’s arrangements. If I picked up a road map it would not tell me anything about any of the brethren, but if I look at it from God’s perspective what I see is the brethren.
WMP What is in your mind as to how we contribute to this matter of food for the household? We know that the Lord nourishes and cherishes His assembly, He is able to do that Himself, (Eph 5: 29), but why would there be this thought that they provided food for the king?
PAG Our brother reminded us that Christianity works by what it brings, not by what it finds, JND Letters vol 3 p 137. Please say something about that for our help; it was a helpful thought that you brought before us.
DAB It is very easy to come together and sit and say nothing, and your mind is elsewhere, but when I read that, that was in Mr Darby’s ministry, and it really tested me and has never left me. So as coming as contributors we contribute to the working of this system of glory, and it brings in mutuality and confidence in one another. In many churches one man takes the lead and you can go along and sit and say nothing and leave again. But the system of glory operates because of the wonderful One who is the Head of it, but also those who take character from that blessed One, the Lord of glory, and that really is how the contributions, how the working of the system of glory, continues.
PAG Yes, and we should emphasise that sisters as well as brothers bring something to the occasions; they bring it in their spirits. We were helped through teaching many years ago to see that the sisters should be present at all the meetings, including the care meeting and meetings of assembly character. Sisters should be present because the scripture says, “all that in every place” (1 Cor 1: 2); the emphasis is on “all”. Not all can always be available, but all who are available have something to contribute to every meeting. A sister may bring an exercise; she does not express it verbally, but it is on her spirit. There may be something come in that answers to that.
DAB I have had the experience of a sister coming to me and saying that what was expressed in the meeting was exactly what was in her heart; that really just confirms what you have just been saying.
PAG The Lord is able for that.
PJW Do you see any link between the passage in 1 Corinthians 12 and 1 Kings where you have read with the gifts that come from a glorified Christ?
PAG I do see a link, very much so. I want to refer both to Ephesians and Corinthians. In Ephesians it is what the ascended Christ has given, “some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers”, (chap 4: 11); so He has assigned those persons who are able to help. But then in 1 Corinthians 12 the question is raised, “God has set certain in the assembly: first, apostles; secondly, prophets; thirdly, teachers; then miraculous powers; then gifts of healings; helps; governments; kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? ... But desire earnestly the greater gifts, and yet shew I unto you a way of more surpassing excellence”, v 28-31. We should desire the greater gifts, not to add status to ourselves, but to give glory to God, but who of us could not be a help? There is something for everyone to do. Each of us could be a help; that is not beyond anyone. There is the administration whereby what is set is available to all. There is what relates to local responsibility, but I think gift is more general; it is not simply restricted to what is local, but locally there are needs, and we all need “helps” locally, and everyone could desire that gift.
BWL All these persons’ names begin with “Ben” which means ‘son’, or they are spoken of as being a son. Do you think that these are persons that are really formed in love? We are all sons through believing on Christ, having faith in Christ, but do you think there is something formative in these persons that really underlies all this?
PAG I was keen that we see the link between wisdom and love. These persons would act in wisdom, but they would be formed in love; sonship would speak of that. Being formed in love helps us in the exercise of wisdom and it says of Solomon that he had “wisdom and very great understanding and largeness of heart”. Solomon’s largeness of heart and his wisdom were both seen when the living child was brought before him and he acted in a way that brought out the affections of the true mother and the life of the child was preserved, 1 Kings 3: 16-28. So wisdom and largeness of heart together work for the preservation of life.
JL Is that the nature of the spirit that the saints have been furnished with, “power and of love, and of wise discretion”, 2 Tim 1: 7.
PAG That is very good. Would it be going too far to say that we should regard these three things as somewhat inseparable from one another?
JL I noticed a comment of C H Macintosh recently in which he said it is the most perfect blend the apothecary could ever make! It just impressed me that the blending of these things that we have been provided with brings about a perfect resource to serve acceptably under the hand of the Master.
PAG So these would be features that are seen actively in this system of glory; power and love and wise discretion go on together.
We might just touch on our last scripture. I do want to emphasise the first three words of the verse, “But we all”. What we are speaking about today is for every believer, “But we all”. If anyone here today is not sure if they have a place in this, this scripture would answer that. Every believer is included in “But we all”.
DAB I would like some help as to “looking on the glory of the Lord”. Moses was one who asked to see the glory of the Lord ,and would you encourage us that we can also do the same?
PAG I would encourage us all. When Moses asked to see the glory the condition of things then was such that he had to be put in the cleft of the rock and he could not see it entirely; the glory passed by, Exod 33: 17-23. He had an impression of it but he was covered in the cleft of the rock because if he had seen the glory face on that would have been too much for him. “But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face”; when Moses came down from the mountain he had had that impression of the glory and thus his face shone, and he had to put a veil on his own face because the glory was too great for Israel. Persons who have the gift of the Spirit can look at the glory directly. We cannot and never will look at the glory of deity; we should be clear about that, but in Christ as Man the fulness of glory shines; He is “the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance”, Heb 1: 3. By faith we can see Him directly! When we have bodies of glory we will see Him face to face, and we will have the capacity then to take it in in a fuller way than we have at the moment.
NJH That is collective transformation. They had already arrived in the body of the saints as to what was wrong in Corinth; that was passed, and now they could look on the glory of the Lord and be transformed. It is a wonderful effect that God makes on His people.
PAG The Lord is preparing us for His coming. He has been doing it since the Spirit came, but I believe His coming is very near.
QAP Is an example in Stephen? I know it is individual, but “full of faith and the Holy Spirit” (Acts 6: 5), and that wonderful view that he had of the Son of Man in glory.
PAG Well, Stephen died because of His appreciation of the Lord of glory, and he came out like Him; he said, “lay not this sin to their charge” (chap 7: 60); that related to the particular sin of taking Stephen’s life. He was like His Master. On the cross the Lord said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do”, Luke 23: 34. So great is He that that word covers the whole of this dispensation. We come in through mercy, through what is spoken of in Leviticus chapter 4 as the sin of inadvertence, because the Lord said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do”. Such a One is the One whose face now shines in divine glory. We can look on it, and we do! It may be fleetingly, but we do, “from glory to glory”. We are going to glory, beloved brethren! That is where we are going. The question is, are we subject to the Lord of glory on our journey there?
NJH Is it the service of God?
PAG It is indeed.
JL I find it of interest that Stephen’s face shone like the face of an angel before he looked on the final glory, Acts 6: 15. You get the impression that he was a man who was habitually contemplating Christ and in the presence of the glory, “full of faith and the Holy Spirit”; that was his life, and was seen in his face even before the final impression he had.
PAG I do not think Stephen was surprised by the glory! It would be something that he recognised. It would be a wonderful thing if each of us could say as Mr Darby did:
There no stranger-God shall meet thee
(Hymn 76).
At 3-day meetings in Glasgow
21st October 2022
List of inititals:
A M Brown, Linlithgow; D A Brown, Bo’ness; D C Brown, Edinburgh; J A Brown, Linlithgow; J T Brown, Edinburgh; R H Brown, Maidstone; A Buchan, Kirkcaldy; G M Chellberg, Wheaton; H T Franklin, Grimsby; G B Grant, Dundee; P A Gray, Linlithgow; N J Henry, Glasgow; J B Ikin, Manchester; J Laurie, Brechin; B W Lovie, Aberdeen; R W McClean, Grimsby; N C McKay, Glasgow; A G Mair, Cullen; W M Patterson, Glasgow; R D Plant, Birmingham; Q A Poore, Swanage; D Spinks, Bo’ness; P J Walkinshaw, Strood