MUTUALITY

Exodus 10: 7-11, 24-26; 15: 1-2

1 John 2: 12-14

DJK  I hope the brethren understand that it is not my desire to take this reading, but simply to make a suggestion as to what is mutual. There are many age groups here with us; the locality is composed of children, young men and fathers, as we get in John's first epistle. I am speaking about the locality at this point, but I am not leaving out all who belong to the Lord Jesus. The exercise, and it is a right exercise, is that there would be something for everyone.

I will begin by saying that God, in His wisdom, has placed things as He has seen fit. As we know, things begin in the household; God has established households. A household might be composed of a young couple, or an older couple, or a single person, but God supplies something for everyone. I think the exercise would be that, as beginning there, things are learned distinctly in the household. Now I say that carefully because I do not want to imply that things are not learned in times that we have together such as this; but I think there is a certain wisdom of God, especially given to the parents in bringing up children, as they know the children and their needs and can instruct them. The parents also have needs. Each one of us has needs, and we are all in the learning time.

I want to enquire together about this subject because I think what has been raised recently in some of our enquiries together is important, so that we are not negligent or forgetful of the needs of each one. We go on together in a mutual way as knowing those needs. We have little children amongst us, and they are also learning. They are learning first by observation, by what we as the older ones are doing. Are things attractive to us so that they are attractive to the younger persons? But then, as we are engaged in such times as we were this morning at the Supper and the service of God, I was thinking about what a privilege it is to touch on what is eternal and be able to have some sense that we are all in that occasion mutually together. Maybe my understanding is not as much as someone else's, but it does not mean that I cannot appreciate the privilege of knowing what it is to be able to speak to divine Persons and to worship Them. I wondered if we could get some sense of this.

I read in Exodus because of Moses' exercise. Pharaoh wanted to separate the families. Pharaoh could be a type of the enemy himself, or he could be a type of the world; either way the desire is to separate the families. I think it is very important that that is not allowed to happen. Moses said, “We will go with our young and with our old”, but he does not stop there. He says, “… with our sons and with our daughters; with our flocks and with our herds will we go”. As we read further in this chapter, Moses distinctly says the reason that he was going to take the cattle and the herds was so that there would be offerings to sacrifice to Jehovah. I think that is extremely important. What God has given us first, in relation to the children, we desire to take with us, but then we also take with us what God has provided for Himself in the way of offerings.

AML  This is a very great subject. It is important to see that Moses is concerned that all should go and not one would be left behind. At first the enemy wanted to keep the little ones. But the old and the young, the sons and the daughters, and the cattle were going to be used for the offerings later in the wilderness. Mr Coates says about Reuben and Gad, who had a multitude of flocks (Numbers 32), that they had not been used for the offerings, Outline of Numbers (vol 4) p370. That is why they were the first to be taken into captivity. The flocks are very important. I wonder if that goes along with light in the dwellings of Israel, v 23. There was something of a living character amongst the people of God that Moses wanted to rescue, and God wanted to have. “Let my son go that he may serve me” (chap 4: 23), but the enemy was against that.

DJK  Beginnings are important; this is the beginning of what was to be. We know that the provision of God was for all the children of Israel, and it is wonderful what Moses says, “for we have a feast of Jehovah”. There was something in his mind in relation to what was going to be for Jehovah. That is important in our beginnings, that we have in mind what is for Jehovah first. We know that in the wilderness there was failure, and the people murmured and Jehovah had to come in in a judgmental way with the serpents, Num 26: 6, 7. These are all trials and tests that come in the wilderness, but what we want to especially keep in mind was the beginning of what God had established with Moses. This was to be a result of Pharaoh letting them go.

AML  And would it be an exercise to realise that the enemy cannot really understand what is pleasing to God as we have in verse 11, “And they were driven out from Pharaoh's presence”.  That is really the sufferings of Christ amongst the saints; that is something beyond what Moses had said, because he knew that God wanted all in view of celebrating the feasts. We soon have the passover taking place, which is really the foundation of our beginning, the death of Christ, which of course is another subject, chap 12.

DJK  We read later on where they sang a song. It says, “Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song”, chap 15: 1. In type, the result of the death of Christ meant something to them. Is that not an important feature, that the death of Christ means something to us? We really cannot go in for divine things if we do not understand the death of Christ.

AML  Aaron was a priest, but Moses stands out unique and supreme, as a type of Christ leading the saints in this song.

MJK  I have been thinking of what you have mentioned about what is from the beginning. One of the very first things that Satan did was to divide the household. God questions Adam and he immediately makes an accusation against Eve, Gen 3: 12. And then it says later in the same chapter, “And Man called his wife's name Eve”, v 20. And the next verse says, “And Jehovah Elohim made Adam and his wife coats of skin, and clothed them”. And then it says, “And Jehovah Elohim said, Behold, Man is become as one of us”, v 20-22. It is important that God brings in deliverance.  But then there is Cain and Abel, and again, Satan comes in and divides, chap 4. So God must come in and He brings in another man after Abel (v 25), because He brings in what is whole. Would that go along with your thought? Moses knew these things; he knew what God's mind was.

DJK Yes, I think it is good what you bring in.  That is the first household mentioned in Scripture. We see how the result of sin comes in in Cain slaying his brother. But what is important is that, when Seth is born it says, “Then people began to call upon the name of Jehovah”, Gen 4: 26.  God had another Man in mind and that is such a tremendous fact to grasp. That is the effect in a household that seeks to go on for the Lord Jesus. Sometimes we may think that a household is just persons dwelling together, and that is true, but how important it is that the household is established in the Lord. There is a lot of influence in a household, and how precious it is to God.

TRV  I appreciate what is coming out as from the beginning and the household in and of itself, and Satan's efforts, and do you think it is all connected with having a worthy objective? The household is not just a self-contained unit in and of itself. The people of God are not just self- contained units in and of themselves, but they all have an objective. Here the language is “their God”. It affected me the other day thinking about the verse about God dwelling with men, 2 Chron 6: 18. That is not just males but all of mankind. He is dwelling with those that He takes pleasure in. If we have an objective, a worthy objective, that makes the beginning have meaning, and it guides us in that beginning, even though we know Satan, through the flesh, the failure of the flesh, will try to divert from that. It is not just a household for the sake of a household; it has an end in view, does it not?

DJK      That is important; if we could all consider that for a moment, because God is gracious, and He is merciful. Just to be very simple, as a younger person, when I thought about a household, I did not think about what it should be too much. I wanted to have a wife and have someone I could share things together with. I did not think much about an actual household. But the grace of God was available so that after I was married I started to realise that an established household was God's desire.  I did not have a great exercise about setting up a household, but God in His grace took me up. I came to it that there is responsibility and privilege in a household. Maybe at the beginning we do not understand all these things, but it is wonderful that God in His grace works so that we might come into the appreciation of His mind.

AML  Do you think that Noah sets it out? What we have in Hebrews 11: 7 is that he “prepared an ark for the saving of his house”. The fact that he built the ark would be his exercises in view of salvation for his house.

RBC      The scripture in Joshua says, “as for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah”, chap 24: 15. You have the headship of the household there, but the “we” is the family in the house. It is that assembly conditions as we recognise them are modelled after the household.

DJK That is very good because we might ask what caused the household to be together in that desire.  Do you not think it was because of Joshua's own desires? I was reading the scripture in Mark where the Lord is speaking to the Pharisees, and He says, “This people honour me with their lips, but their heart is far away from me”, chap 7: 6. Joshua's desire to serve the Lord would be seen in his household because it is attractive. Do you think that is an important thing in a household, that the parents take things up in a real manner? Doing things out of habit is not a bad thing as it may preserve us, but as doing them we come to understand them in a greater way and that would be God's desire. Then as we take them up it means something to us as it did to Joshua's household.

DaJK I appreciate very much what you are bringing up, and I like this thought of mutuality, because what you see here in Moses is he would not accept anything but for the whole house to go through, and not only that, but everything that was for Jehovah. So, he really had in mind the God whom he feared, and what was for Him ultimately. One thing that struck me as we were reading this is the thought of time. The young children here may think that time is on their side. And as being young they may think of their parents or grandparents, and cannot even imagine being that old. One thing that I think that the children need to understand is that time did not used to be and time will cease to exist. So, we only have a period that God has set out which He has put in

'time'. We are exhorted in scripture to make use of the time. It says, “now is the well-accepted time”, 2 Cor 6: 2. Time is urgent, and when we have a meeting like this it is important that we take this time and make use of it for everyone here. Everyone should be able to glean something for the glory of God and for the furtherance of the testimony. I appreciate how you are bringing out the mutuality and the household because these things come from the household, and they lead back to the household.

DJK  It is very good what you say. Those of us who are a little bit older have a sense of time because we realise it is going very quickly. Children may not have that concept as much, but I think it is important that Moses did not say, 'let me go and see what the wilderness is like and then I will come back and get the young'. All the exercises that we pass through, whether it is in the household, in our individual lives, as a locality, or in relation to what is universal, are to be worked out together. I think that is the mutuality that we spoke about. There are things that we pass through in our own lives, that God causes us to pass through because we need the discipline, keeping in mind that others can also learn from that discipline. That is extremely important. The mutuality of learning together is really what brings fruit for God.

PBK  In your opening remarks you said now is the learning time. I

wonder if you could just explain that.

DJK      I wonder if it goes back to the last comment in relation to time and the children learning. God has allotted each of us, by His grace, a certain amount of time. Scripture speaks of, “threescore years and ten; and if, by reason of strength, they be fourscore years”, Ps 90: 10. We do not know what our allotted time is, but what is important is that there is a certain amount of time that God has allotted us. And would you say that that whole period of time, whatever that is, is the learning time? It is not that I reach a certain age and I am done learning. It is all the learning time. A child would understand what learning at school is but as believers we are learning all the time. What is your impression?

PBK  Is there the thought that we do not exactly grow in eternity, see JT vol 56 p257? We have an opportunity to know more about the glories of the Lord Jesus now. If we just say we do not want to do it anymore, we just do not want to do that right now because there are too many other things to do, it is something we do not gain for eternity, is it not? We learn the things of the Lord Jesus here.

DJK      I think that is right.  I fear that we spend much of our time learning the wretchedness of the flesh. It is important that we are brought to the greatness of Christ; He has overcome the flesh.

PBK      We read the verse in the home this morning, “run with endurance the race that lies before us, looking stedfastly on Jesus the leader and completer of faith”, Heb 12: 1, 2. I just wonder as to what the Lord has in mind in blessing each one of us. Are we running the race with endurance with Him in view, or are we running this race for what is good for me? I do not mean to be dogmatic about it but so many in Christendom may say, 'I go this place because it makes me feel good'. What we should ask is, 'Do you go where it makes the Lord happy?'.

CJB      Will what we enjoy of Christ now be magnified in eternity? Can you help us with that thought?

DJK      When the apostle Paul speaks about the light that shone from heaven, it got brighter and brighter each time he recalled it. I think that was growth. He grew in his appreciation of the greatness of the Lord Jesus. I am sure that eternity will be the expression of what we have learned of that greatness now.

AML  Is it important to see that the time of learning down here is finished when we come to eternity; then it is display. What has been formed during the dispensation of the Spirit here is something that is formed in all the saints. That will come out universally and unite the praise to God. Then there is praise to God in the assembly in Christ Jesus. That is all based on what is worked out now. I was thinking of the scripture that Solomon has in Ecclesiastes, “Whatever thy hand findeth to do, do with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest”, chap 9: 10. When the Lord takes us that time of learning is over. That makes the present time very precious.

DJK      I appreciate what has come out, and I trust it means something to each one of us, that not only is it the time of learning now, but we can actually enjoy the present time. The challenge is how much I enjoy spiritual things at the present time.

MBK  Is there a time to be learning and a time to be thankful?

DJK      I think we can do both at the same time, but I think when Moses spoke about the feast of Jehovah, it would perhaps refer to when what has been learned comes out in expression. We can call it thankfulness; we can call it worship, and I think that is important too.

MBK  Sometimes when we are learning, there is a lot to take in, and we do not understand what we have heard. But sometimes you just need to turn around and be thankful for what you have learned. You need to be able to appreciate and take it from God; and you come to know His peace.

DJK  I appreciate what you say very much. It is an important feature that we learn to be thankful. It is wonderful to see how when Moses and the children of Israel came through the Red Sea, they turned in thankfulness to Jehovah and they sang a song. They had learned much in being in Egypt. They had learned much in even coming through the Red Sea, but then they turned to Jehovah in thankfulness.

RBC  There were those who are “always learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth”, 2 Tim 3: 7. That is a sad state to be in. It makes you wonder if such are ever thankful for what they have learned; it has never brought any spiritual maturity.

DJK      Could you say some more about spiritual maturity? There is learning needed to come to that, but we need to turn aside in thankfulness. Speaking to divine Persons is a wonderful privilege.

RBC  The passage you read in John's epistle helps because he categorises, “I write to you, fathers … I write to you, young men … I write to you, little children”. The fathers are those that “have known him that is from the beginning”. There is what has been acquired.

CJB  Is there to be capacity for learning then? I am linking on with what has been mentioned, that there are fathers, young men and children. I was thinking about “desire earnestly the pure mental milk of the word” (1 Pet 2: 2); that may be a good place to start; and then the manna came to mind. We cannot overeat, but there is a capacity for us to appropriate and enjoy the fulness of everything that we can. There is no lack; we do not starve if there is a desire.

DJK  I think that is good. I wondered if the side of dependence comes in. One thing that marks children is dependence. They are dependent on the parents, and that dependence causes the child to turn to the parents with a need or a question, whatever it may be. It is important that we all have a sense of our dependence.  A child is also unassuming.  It has been said that one feature of an overcomer is that he does not become jaded in relation to life, which is a very important thing. We want to take this unassuming stance so that we can be free to be able to learn.

AML      Would you say that Joshua is an example of maturity coming to light? I think in one instance he is referred to as a young man. He did not leave the Tent of meeting (Exod 33: 11), but he would have learnt under the rule of Moses, and this came to light especially after Moses' death in the beginning of the book of Joshua.

TRV  It is very encouraging to talk about the time of spiritual growth. The portion we read in 1 John is normal spiritual growth, and it brought to mind that when they crossed the Jordan they took and put stones in the Jordan. Then it says, “When your children hereafter ask their fathers, saying, What mean these stones?” Josh 4: 21. It is a real privilege to encourage all the young parents to have that opened ear when the children ask. It is also very encouraging that the children are free to ask. There must be an answer, and that is challenging as a parent. I do not have all the answers as a parent, but I know where I can find the answers: that is a very encouraging thing for all the young parents. And you want to set on what is for the mutuality of the household. Things get answered in the household, and in doing so the mutual thanksgiving can go up for what has been learned because you see normal spiritual growth in 1 John 2.

DJK  I think we would all confess that we do not feel we know much; however, we need to also remember that we have “a patron with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous”. We can turn to divine Persons and seek help. We have the Spirit to help us increase in our understanding of things. I say understanding over against learning, because perhaps we have heard these things, but the Spirit is able to help us to understand and appropriate them. Let us remember that the local brethren are also able to help us. We may not think much about these times that have been spoken of, times such as being with the local brethren on a weeknight and hearing the prayers of each as they ascend to the throne of grace. The desires of the brethren being audibly heard increases and stimulates us in relation to what is precious to God. And then being able to sit down on another weeknight and open the Scriptures and get help together so that there is increase. One might say, 'Well, I do not know much'. If I absent myself from the occasions in the assembly calendar, how can there be an increase? We can learn in our own individual lives by the reading of the Scriptures and the ministry, but have we not found in our own experiences that working things out with our local brethren has brought us to something that we did not have before?

TRV  What 1 Corinthians 12 teaches us about the members of the body is the working out of things locally, is it not? Each member of the body is needed. And in that whole section it brings in being together and there are teachers. That is a very important principle you have just pointed out.

AML      Would you connect the thought of the little ones and the children with how the testimony will go on from generation to generation? The ark rested in Numbers 10 and when it returned, they said – “Return, Jehovah, unto the myriads of the thousands of Israel”, v 36. When we come together, we listen to our brethren's prayers. And in the morning meeting we listen to the part that is taken as spoken to divine Persons, and we are strengthened and encouraged by what comes out; that is how we get an impression.

DJK  That is very good. Moses no doubt had a distinct sense of this. Moses did not get to go into the land. But he obviously had in mind that there were going to be those who would.  His desire was for continuance. It should be the desire of each of us. Maybe when we are younger, we do not think about it so much, but normal spiritual growth would cause us to realise that what God has established is for us as well as for the generations that follow.

AJC      I was just thinking in relation to the thought of mutual learning of the multitudes being fed in the gospels. In the account in Matthew, they go to the Lord to be healed in the desert and what they get is food. It says that there were five thousand men besides women and children, and they were all together in receiving food from the Lord. In Mark it says that He taught them many things; I was wondering if that connects. The learning and the food may be related but what I was impressed with was it was not just a few, it was all the men, woman and children together.

DJK  That is a very good reference. Do you think that is God's desire? It is interesting in one of those accounts that it speaks about green grass. That is really comfort in view of what is mutual, so that all can sit down and enjoy together.

AML      I think in connection with what has been said, it is very important to see that in Matthew's gospel the crowds come to Jesus; in Luke's gospel Jesus goes to the crowds. So, the reference that is made is very important. It is a spiritual movement in Matthew, which is very special, which is a delight to the Lord. And He can bless in that way.

DaJK I am interested in what was said about the apostle Paul. Every time he tells the story of his conversion the light gets brighter. But it only happened to him once.  He had that time of learning, but that experience grew. I do not know if you call that learning or if you would call that thankfulness, but his was a thankful heart as his experience grew. Would the learning and the experience and the thankfulness go together? You can learn and be thankful and experience these things as Paul's experience grew and grew and grew and became brighter. I was thinking that the brighter the light gets, the more the things of the world became dim. Was it because he was in it? The more I can stay in these things and talk about them with other Christians and other lovers of Christ, whether it be in the local assembly or whether it be universally, whenever I am communicating about my appreciation or someone is sharing their appreciation that they have of the Lord, the things of the world become dim.

DJK      It may be that I am at the point that I am thankful for my salvation and that is a good point.

The horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. But the appreciation should go much further:

My strength and song is Jah, and he is become my salvation: This is my God, and I will glorify him;

My father's God, and I will extol him.

There comes a point where we begin with initial thankfulness for our salvation and that is just the beginning; think of what it opens up. Younger persons can listen as the brethren worship divine Persons. It really opens up what is beyond just salvation.

JADK  I wanted to go back to what was said about the learning time because I feel challenged with that question. I have often thought that if I keep coming to meeting just for myself, I am not going to come for very much longer. I used to feel I was not getting anything out of it; and then I changed my outlook so that I was coming for God, and it made me want to come a lot more and share the setting with the local brethren. I understand why we do not have a pastor because if one person is leading you miss a lot. Your exercise might go along with my exercise, and your outlook can change or add to the outlook that I have. The more that we sit together and talk about it the more exciting it is going to be to come together. I say that carefully because, speaking of age, when I was a teenager, I used to wonder how my father could understand; I imagined he had never been through my experience. But he did not come out at forty years old: he went through the teenage years as well. Now having a daughter, I can see where she is going to get something from. She is always going to see me as having been the same age as she is; and I feel that time is important. It makes me realise that time does keep moving on.

DJK      What you have brought up is very important. We cannot think about what is mutual without thinking about the activity of the Spirit. We could go around the room and ask each one here, and they would recall a time when they were greatly confirmed in an exercise or in some thought that they had. Perhaps they were going to give out a certain hymn and some brother gave it out before them. We need to think practically about the activity of the Spirit; it is something that we prove. Maybe we view the Spirit's activity as some austere thing or something that is beyond us but the Spirit dwells in the believer. What a wonderful thing to prove the mutuality of what is produced by the Spirit.

AML      You think about Paul. It says when he saw the brethren, “he thanked God and took courage”, Acts 28: 15 . That would be by the Spirit. He would recognise the work of God in each one. That would encourage and strengthen him in his service.

MJK      I was thinking about what you said at the beginning in relation to what is mutual and the young getting involved, and I was impressed by what was mentioned about when the children shall ask. I sometimes wonder if we leave any room for asking. There are a lot of statements, a lot of good statements being made, but how do we help a child that does not get the opportunity to ask?

DJK  It is important to be good listeners.

RBC  An example is given in Luke 2. The Lord Jesus is in the temple, perhaps in a meeting not unlike this one, and it says about him that he was “hearing them and asking them questions”; that was a good environment.

CJB      When the Spirit came into the assembly in the Acts, they all spoke in various languages, chap 2: 4. Is there something mutual when we come together in a collective way that is an opportunity for the Spirit to manifest something prophetic?

DJK  Absolutely. One of the things it says in that scripture is that they had all things common, v 44. From what I understand, that was both practically and spiritually. They had all things common, but I think it is a feature that should mark us as we come together in a spiritual setting. We all have the gift of the Spirit. The Spirit is not dependent on one more than another. The Spirit may use you to stimulate me, or vice versa. The mutuality of that is such that something is gained. If we take nothing else away from this reading, let us understand that mutuality is with the desire that something is gained. It is shared, that is true, but when we come together and share and discuss spiritual things together, something is gained in the soul. Then there is something for the divine pleasure.

TRV  The first portion that you had us read has a real emphasis on leaving with the little ones, cattle, everything. I did not go through and count, but it would be interesting to count the number of times the burnt- offering is mentioned and the word “we”. That is the mutuality; it is not coming together for the sin-offering here. The picture here is what is of Christ – the burnt-offering. He comes in and everything is for Him. Do you think that the Spirit helps us mutually because we have Christ before us?

DJK  Yes, that is an important feature of what is mutual that we have a sense of this fragrance from the burnt-offering. Christ is brought before each one of us in a fresh way so there is something for divine Persons as a result.

VMK      Might there be a comment as to what was read in 1 John 1 with the young men being able to overcome the wicked one? It is mainly focusing on overcoming.

DJK  I think that is a good question to ask. If you will allow, I want to pass along an impression I gained probably twenty years ago or more from this scripture. The young men are normally marked by strength and that is right and good. But another important stage of growth seen in this section is the fathers. I realised the importance of spiritual fathers because they have known “him that is from the beginning”. I may have been marked by strength, but it needed to be channelled in a right way, and fathers were able to help me understand what that way was. Maybe I had a desire to do what was right, but I was going about it in the wrong way. I would be able to speak to a father and he would say,

'Well, perhaps this is the way that it should be done'. I was able to get help and learn from those experiences as guided by those that had “known him that is from the beginning”.

VMK  That helps. I was thinking about the steps that we can follow. It speaks of the young men being “strong, and the word of God abides in” them. Not only would we have spiritual fathers down here, but we would also turn to the Father seeking to be emulators of Christ. We rely upon the Father in every way as the Son was here dependent on the Father for His every movement. There would be what we overcome as young men marked by desire and zeal and strength.

ABERDEEN, ID

9th October 2022

List of initials (all local in Aberdeen, Idaho)

C J Brien, R B Clark, A J Croot, J Alex D Klassen, Daryl J Klassen, Doug J Klassen, Michael J Klassen, Matthew B Klassen,

Phil B Klassen, Victor M Klassen, A M Lidbeck, T R Vanderhoek