“MY PEACE” AND “MY JOY”
John 14: 27
John 20: 19, 20
John 15: 9-11
John 17: 12, 13
KJW We sang Hymn 339 this morning and I was very affected by the words -
Thy peace, Thy joy Thou bringest here
Our souls to bless, our hearts to cheer.
(Hymn 339)
I wondered if we might consider the Lord’s peace and the Lord’s joy. The lines of the hymn brought home to me that it was the Lord’s peace and the Lord’s joy that was brought. That is not something we may have brought, or anyone else could bring, but what the Lord Himself brought; His peace and His joy. I feel the need of this for myself at the moment, as I am sure we all do. I wondered if we could focus not on our peace necessarily, although I think that would be the result; the particular character of this is that it is the Lord’s peace and the Lord’s joy. It would give us peace and it would give us joy, but I was particularly impressed that, apart from the second one we read, these scriptures refer specifically to what is His: “my joy”, and “I give my peace to you”. In that second scripture, I thought we might see an example of the Lord bringing His peace in to the company.
Then in chapter 15, the Lord says, “that my joy may be in you, and your joy be full”. The result of this would be that we would have peace and joy. I think there is something special about this, that it is as a result of being the Lord’s peace and the Lord’s joy. It is not a striving on our part for peace or joy in their own right, but it is something that the Lord has. We can enquire and get help together as to the Lord’s peace and joy. It is what He would bring.
The final scripture we read speaks of “my joy fulfilled in them”. I feel challenged as to these things, but I wonder whether we might find encouragement, particularly at this time, by looking at them.
AJET You can see an application of these things at the end of where you read in chapter 14: “Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it fear”. These things would encourage us on in that way.
KJW I wondered that. It is a peace like no other, the peace that the Lord can give. I wonder whether that is as a result of it being His peace that He would bring. It is not necessarily that we are at peace just by contemplating the Lord, but this is something that He would bring as well, Himself. That seems to be another aspect of this.
AJET It comes into that hymn that you quoted - ‘Thou bringest here’. I do like the way this verse 27 begins. The Lord says, “I leave peace with you”. He leaves it with them, but then it is almost as if He makes it more intimate when He says, “I give my peace to you”. It is not that He will just leave it with us, but He will give it; almost as if He is personally handing it over and passing it on. These scriptures are generally in regard of what is collective or what applies to a company, but as you are thinking the matter through, there would be individual application as well. He says, “I give”; the Lord is so ready to give.
KJW I would think that; what you say is helpful. This was something that the Lord left. I get the impression that it is something that He continues to give. “I give my peace to you”; this would be something that goes on.
AJET Yes, that would link again with the last part of the verse: “Let not your heart be troubled”. We do not exactly want to dwell on that side. Whatever might trouble us, He has that which is His to bring in, to give us: “I leave peace with you”. That suggests that He brought it with Him. Being who He is, that would be so. He leaves what He has with us. He does not just leave it: He makes a gift of it.
RJF Do you think we see the Lord’s own touch? There is that which is given by Him; it is something that is communicated. It is not just communication in words; it is something to be experienced. If somebody gives you something, there is the gift that they have given, but there is the giver of that gift. What you are encouraging us to contemplate is the Giver as much as the gift itself; it takes character from the Giver. It is His peace and His joy.
KJW That is absolutely right. It is something that He brings as the hymn puts it. ‘Thou bringest here’; that is because it is His peace, which is what He would bring and what He would give. Yes; we should contemplate that. It is different to anything else that we could find; that the Lord would bring His peace and give it to us.
DAB Do you have anything in mind in relation to the fact that peace is spoken of before the Lord went on to the cross? You might say He had peace even when He knew what was before Him as to what He was to bear.
KJW That is helpful. More can be said as to the character of His peace and how He had it here. He is referred to elsewhere as “Prince of Peace”, Isa 9: 6. There is something that the Lord has in the way of peace, perfectly.
DAB That is a helpful reference. That is one of His names, “Prince of Peace”. His path here was outwardly anything but peaceful: how much He bore in relation to righteousness before men here. But it speaks of Him being “as a tender sapling, and as a root out of dry ground”, Isa 53: 2. Another scripture that went through my mind was, “I do always the things that are pleasing to him”, John 8: 29. That seems to have a bearing on His peace.
KJW Again, these are things that we can contemplate. You think of the knowledge that the Lord had of what lay ahead and the knowledge He had of how it would impact on His own; and the perfection therefore of Him saying this to His own at this time.
RJF We tend to think of peace as being something in the absence of warfare or fighting or argument, but it is not so in divine terms. Peace is knowing that there is nothing that comes between the individual and the Father. That is the beauty of the Lord’s peace, that there is not an iota of divergence between the Lord’s will and the Father’s will. The Father’s love was upon Him. He knew that love; He knew that His reception before the Father was something that was absolute.
PHM I was thinking about where the Lord comes in to His own in chapter 20; what lies behind the work, when He says “my peace”, is what the Lord has done which was necessary to bring about that peace. In Timothy it tells us to “pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart”, 2 Tim 2: 22. That is the way in. He was the only one whom God could use to deal with sin. He is the righteous One. When you think of “my peace”, what is behind that is the peace of the righteous One that has dealt with sin. Without dealing with sin we cannot have peace. It involves believing. We come into the good of His peace, “my peace”, by believing in faith.
KJW Yes, certainly. It is helpful what you bring in as to the work and the fundamental aspect of that. Maybe that moves us on to chapter 20. I was thinking that this was after the Lord had completed that work. The disciples were very unsure about what would happen; they were in fear of the Jews. The Lord “came and stood in the midst, and says to them, Peace be to you”. I wondered whether that would be a real example to us of the Lord bringing His peace: “Peace be to you”. It says at the end of verse 20, “The disciples rejoiced therefore, having seen the Lord”. That seems to be the key to it. The first aspect is to believe in the Lord, to have peace, peace through believing; but then the Lord brings His own peace here as well.
PHM The Lord has to adjust Thomas; He was very gracious with the finger, but He says, “Because thou hast seen me thou hast believed: blessed they who have not seen and have believed”, v 29. He is referring to such as ourselves who have not seen and believed; that is “my peace”, is it not? It brings that in as a reality.
LEM Have you any thought as to the Holy Spirit in this? In the verse before where you read in chapter 14, the Holy Spirit is referred to as “the Comforter”; and just after you read here in John 20, the Lord “breathed into them, and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit”, v 22. Do you think that is part of knowing the Lord’s peace?
KJW I do absolutely. And part of the fruit of the Spirit is peace (Gal 5: 22), and joy, which we will come on to, is also. I think you are absolutely right. The timing has been referred to, “another Comforter” (John 14: 16), is referred to; that was the backdrop to the Lord saying, “I leave peace with you; I give my peace to you”. He speaks of “the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name”, v 26. The Holy Spirit would prompt us as the Lord would bring His peace; the Holy Spirit would prompt us to respond to that and to recognise it.
PHM What has been drawn attention to would connect the two, peace and joy. It is a progression. You cannot really think about having joy without having peace. What you are bringing before us is more than peace; the end in mind is joy. The Lord is drawing attention to the way into the joy. It is through the revelation of the Holy Spirit, but it begins with peace. The Holy Spirit plays that important role, dwelling in us to connect peace and joy.
KJW The Holy Spirit would enable us to recognise the Lord bringing His peace and His joy which then gives us peace and joy.
RJF We speak about these things in words, but they are to be experiences. The experience of these things is limited by how much space or opportunity we give to the Holy Spirit and to the Lord Himself. If I feel that I do not really have much enjoyment experiencing these things, the fault is not with the Lord or the Holy Spirit, it is with me, but if I am prayerful in relation to it, these things are open. The Lord will pour them in and the result of that is the experience of joy.
KJW That may have heightened my impression this morning, that really there may be a lack on our part, we may have been distracted greatly by other things, but the Lord will always be faithful and bring His peace and His joy. What a thing that is.
AJET Do you think Mary, in the previous paragraph, was a characteristic person to receive in this way? She was so sorrowful, “Jesus says to her, Woman, why dost thou weep?”, John 20: 15. The Lord, as in all things, knew just what was required; He said, “Mary”. That was sufficient; in one word the Lord really conveys His peace and brought her in to His joy. She says to Him, “Rabboni” (v 16), which we understand means ‘my teacher’ or ‘my very own teacher’. She concentrates on Him immediately.
KJW That is very helpful. It is good to see the connection in the preceding paragraph; it is another example of the Lord bringing His joy and His peace to an individual. We have spoken about the company, and we experienced that this morning, but this was an individual that the Lord could equally bring His peace and His joy to.
PSB I was thinking of another Mary, the example we find with Martha and Mary. Martha is troubled, but Mary is sitting at the feet of Jesus, Luke 10: 39. I was thinking of the comment earlier as to it not being words: she was just sitting there. She knew that peace. The Lord’s peace is not something He had to achieve; it is what He always had. When we come to John chapter 20 there are now the conditions for us to enter truly into that peace.
KJW We cannot achieve peace on our own. The Lord was always at peace. That is a good thing to remember as we speak over these things. In His pathway the Lord always had peace, and always has peace now; that is what He brings.
PSB Do you think that in chapter 20 His desire is to bring them into joy? I was thinking of what has already been said regarding peace, He wants them to enter into His peace and to be in the reality of it is for His joy.
KJW Yes; “The disciples rejoiced therefore, having seen the Lord”; that was the result for them. What a result for the Lord as well to see the joy that they had again and know that it was His joy.
RJF He has “made peace by the blood of His cross”, Col 1: 20. I was interested in what has been said, and I think it is very helpful, that that was peace secured in relation to everyone else, but there was no need for peace to be made between Him and the Father. The possibility of Him being able to give that peace was made by the blood of His cross.
KJW There is something distinctive about His peace and the way that we can experience it.
DAB “Peace be to you” comes in twice here. It comes in in relation to Him manifesting Himself, and then it comes in in relation to what He has done. It was what He was at the outset; He gives us that peace, and then in relation to what He has done He gives us that peace too. He shares. Peace can manifest itself in different ways from the Lord, and He will share both with us: both who He is and what He has done.
KJW Once we have our sins forgiven, we are at peace from that perspective, and it never changes, that we have peace in that way. It seems that this is a different aspect of the Lord bringing peace to us, bringing His peace and bringing His joy to us.
DAB In all things in relation to the Lord, the more you think about them the more they seems to expand. Your first scripture brings in the two thoughts. “I leave peace with you”; and “I give my peace to you”. Then here the Lord twice says, “Peace be to you”. Whatever aspect of the Lord you contemplate it seems to expand.
KJW We could perhaps view, “I leave peace with you” as something arrived at once we have our sins forgiven, we have that peace, but “I give my peace to you” could be an additional thought of the Lord, as we said, bringing His peace and His joy to us.
PSB Do you think in what has been said you get a touch as to that, because at the first when He says, “Peace be to you”; they were in fear? He establishes in their hearts that all that stood against them has been entirely removed. He “stood in the midst” and “he shewed to them his hands and his side”; He showed them that it was all finished. Then the scripture goes on, “Jesus said therefore again to them, Peace be to you”. It might have immediately gone on to Jesus saying, “as the Father sent me forth, I also send you”, but do you think you get that progression? You have the peace and what the peace is: what He has enjoyed with the Father; then He adds, “as the Father sent me forth”, from the abiding joy and peace and love that He had with the Father. He now says this, and this is what is for them to send them forth.
KJW That is very helpful and illuminating.
RJF How do you think this relates to communion?
KJW I think it must be related; for the Lord to give His peace to us and His joy, there must be communion there.
RJF I was reflecting that what we are speaking about here is a very practical example of that thought of communion; that is the enjoyment of the presence of divine Persons, without fear. Mary has been referred to; she was there in His presence and enjoying that presence. Whether that goes as far as what we understand as communion I do not know, possibly not. The enjoyment of these things is in that realm where we should be in communion. It may be that relates more to the first thought, and ascending relates more to consecration, but these are quite deep subjects. As the experience is entered into, there is also that which goes forth in what is referred to here: “as the Father sent me forth, I also send you”.
KJW If we look at chapter 15, there seems to be the thought there of abiding in the Lord’s love. That may be a different thought to communion, abiding in His love. That is necessary as well. It goes on to verse 11: “I have spoken these things to you that my joy may be in you, and your joy be full”. Again, it is the Lord’s joy being in us, and seems to be as a consequence of abiding in the Lord’s love.
RJF Maybe one side is the inward and the other is the outward. Communion is what is enjoyed inwardly, and particularly what we might experience for ourselves on a Lord’s day morning. Abiding in His love is not something that is for a particular time; it should be something that is continuing. That should be the Christian experience, abiding in His love.
KJW Yes certainly; I feel tested as to all these things.
BDM As you were drawing attention to abiding in His love and coming into joy, I was wondering if Christ’s peace may be something you enter into when you first know Christ’s love. You come to know His love, you know salvation, you know there is no longer that strife between yourself and God; and then you can come into the knowledge of Christ’s peace. The enjoyment of that is when you move from knowing His love to abiding in His love. It becomes a current thing, and then through the power of the Spirit that progresses into more of a response. Peace is a very restful thing; joy is walking, leaping and praising God, Acts 3: 8.
KJW These things all seem to be connected. The central thing is that it is all of the Lord; the Lord’s love, abiding in His love, knowing His peace and His joy as they come in. The first thing is to know the peace in believing, then you can come to know the Lord’s own peace, as you say, and know what it is to abide in His love. These are all testing things, but they are all connected.
DAB This is the first time, I think, in the scriptures you have read, that we have a condition: “If ye shall keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love”. There does not seem to be any condition set for the Lord bringing His peace at any point. Whether I feel it or not, it is still true that I have peace with God. I may not feel it, I may not understand it, but from God’s side it is true, and I am seen in Him. In the eyes of God, I have Christ’s peace upon me. As has been said, there is a condition and a joy, abiding in His love. Then, having a sense of peace before God I have joy too because I am abiding in His love. Would that be a helpful way to see it?
KJW Yes, it would. “If ye shall keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love”. That is another thing that is there. “I have spoken these things to you that my joy may be in you, and your joy be full”. It does seem that there is a requirement there, to go in for the full enjoyment of these things, to be keeping His commandments and abiding in His love.
DAB It asks for obedience, obedience to the One we love; and these things flow out from that.
PSB The Lord goes on to say, “as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in His love”. It was never conditional in Him; it is what He was. Someone referred earlier to the verse, “I do always the things that are pleasing” to the Father. There was never any hesitation with the Lord at all, and not only did He keep the Father’s commandments, but He knew what it was to abide in the Father’s love. Is that the true entering into the Lord’s peace; to know what it is to abide in the Father’s love? At the beginning of John the disciples ask, “where abidest thou? … and they abode with him that day”, chap 1: 38, 39. We get earlier in chapter 14, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life”, v 6. Where does it lead to? It leads to where the Father is, and the Father’s abode. Is that the real root and joy of the peace that we get from the Lord?
KJW I think that is helpful. It probably leads us on to the final scripture because that seems to bring out the relationship between the Father and the Lord. It ends “that they may have my joy fulfilled in them”. Verse 12 says, “When I was with them I kept them in thy name”. There seems very much to be a link back to the Father here. That was what the Lord enjoyed, abiding in His love, His will in perfect accord with the Father. He goes on “that they may have my joy fulfilled in them”. It just brings out wonder really that the Lord would speak to His Father in this way of His own.
AJET What would be involved in “my joy fulfilled”? We can understand the thought where He says, “that the scripture might be fulfilled”. But then He says, “that they may have my joy fulfilled”, not that they may fulfil my joy in them; it is “my joy fulfilled”.
KJW It stands out that this is something that the Lord had in mind and would certainly link back to what was brought in about the Holy Spirit. It would be impossible for this to happen without the presence and power of the Holy Spirit. That would really enable this to happen that His joy be fulfilled in us.
RJF It comes back again to what we touched on earlier as to a real experience, a tangible experience. When something is fulfilled it is brought into being, brought to pass: “that they might have my joy fulfilled in them”. It is something that we can actually know.
KJW That takes us back to where we started, that this is the Lord’s desire to bring His joy and bring His peace that it might be in us.
RJF I was looking at the words at the beginning of verse 13: “And now I come to thee”. We might feel that there is an arbitrary placement to these sentences, but because the Lord was going to the Father, He asked for His joy to be fulfilled in His disciples and His own, because He is suited to the presence of the Father.
DAB You touched earlier on the thought of thinking perhaps that I do not really know much about this, and at the time I was thinking that if I think that, that is the prompting of the Holy Spirit. If I feel that I am missing something that is the touch of “another Comforter” who would set us on in the way of this. It was said that this was to be experienced. Any feeling of a lack on my own part can only be traced to the promptings of the Holy Spirit Himself, that I will be exercised to go in for these things.
KJW I certainly feel challenged myself to go in for these things more. As you are saying it is a collective thing. We have experienced this often; the Lord bringing His peace and joy, but it is to be experienced individually as well.
Sunbury
1st November 2020
Key to initials (all local):-
D A Barlow; P S Barlow; R J Flowerdew; B D Morris; L E Morris; P H Morris; A J E Temple; K J Walkinshaw