THE LORD’S PRESENCE
John 20: 19-23
John 14: 18
Ephesians 3: 21
Luke 24: 30-35
AJC I do not feel able to expand on this subject much, nor have I contemplated it enough, although we may always experience the Lord’s presence on a Lord’s day morning, as He comes to His own, I felt in a special way this morning that there was a real sense of that - the Lord being present; in that, we may be drawn completely away from everything that is around. A few of us were discussing yesterday how occupation with Christ leaves everything else behind, and we are quickly drawn into a sphere where we would experience this peace that the Lord speaks of here, twice, in John 20 - “Peace be to you”. I think it is a real comfort and a real joy to us that we may have this, and I think also that it gives a great sense of the fact that He is living. If He was not living, He would not be able to come to us. I am always impressed with that - the testimony to the living Man in heaven, that He comes to us, and we may experience His presence. And it is like where we read in Luke - we get a sense of our hearts burning within us and we recognise Him. In the end they recognised who He was in the breaking of bread. I was thinking too of how the passage in John 14 would also refer to Him coming again for His own. But He does not leave them as orphans during the period here. We may experience the Lord’s presence every Lord’s day morning; how that sustains us in our pathway here, and how it would bring joy to us. I do not really know quite how to explain it, but it is an experience unlike any other experience that we have while we are here. The experience of recognising the Lord being present on Lord’s day morning really is unique, and really does sustain us. I would like help from those who have suggested the other passages too, but I was affected when we had that passage read in Ephesians, that it is “unto all generations of the age of ages”. There is no lack during this period where we are governed by time. We may have this experience - if we are in right conditions, we have this experience every Lord’s day to “the age of ages” in a sense of time; and then in eternity we will be forever with Him. I think we may even get a sense of that on Lord’s day morning, of being in the presence of the Lord forever. I was impressed with that this morning.
AML The disciples speak in a collective way - “We have seen the Lord” (v 24), and they rejoiced. There was no other occasion like it. The inbreathing would refer maybe to what the Lord has delegated to the assembly; because we have the thought of His hands and His side which would bring out a great thought being developed. It is the first time after Christ had been into death that He appears to His own. The emblems speak so much of His death, but it is a living Christ that we remember, and that makes the whole occasion very living and fresh for us.
AJC It is important for us too that, in remembering Him, we have His death in mind, because He went into death that we might have the liberty to enjoy His presence now. He went into death and rose again, and the power of death is no longer upon us; and we are able to be in the enjoyment of a living order of things, and therefore able to enjoy His presence. If we were concerned and occupied with death, then we could not have that experience.
DgJK It is wonderful too that He appears where there are proper assembly conditions present. I am not taking away from the way that the Lord can be made known to an individual but what I mean by that is there is scope for something distinct where there are assembly-minded persons. I wondered if the language in Luke 24 points to that - “Was not our heart” not our ‘hearts’? That suggests to me a link to the verse in Ephesians - “to him be glory in the assembly”, which is the heart of the assembly being engaged with the Lord coming in, do you think?
AJC I had not noticed before that it was “heart”, singular. We should get a great sense of oneness, that we are all together as one body and experiencing this together and each might have a slightly different experience or enjoyment of the presence of Christ. Maybe I have some slightly different impression to the next person that is brought to me by the Spirit, but it all builds up into one response to the Lord. In relation to the assembly conditions, I feel exercised about that too because we come from our own households as individuals and come together collectively, and I have to say sadly that there have been times when I have not recognised the Lord’s presence because I have not been exercised and truly in the gain of the collective position and being together in the Lord’s supper. That is hard to recognise, but I feel that the more we enjoy the Lord’s presence, the more we would not want to miss it.
DgJK I think that is a good way to put it; it does not mean there are assembly conditions just because we sit down together in a room together. Now it is true that there is a wonderful area the Lord can come into where hearts are awakened; and there is the individual side before that, is there not? I feel the test of it myself, but it is a wonderful thing to prove it when it does happen, and it should make us ready for the next time.
CJB It is not automatic. Does that link a little with your thought? I wondered if the “heart burning” has to do with spiritual affections, not a merely emotional experience.
AJC I do not know that I could say too much more about that other than it is a different experience. I think that we might experience our heart burning naturally when maybe we see a loved one or family member we have not seen in a long time, or enjoy the presence of one or another, but this is a different level; it is a spiritual, heavenly level. Can you say more about that?
CJB I am just struck that, when they had a sense of who was in their presence, it brought out a different level of affection beyond what is natural. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. I think this is a spiritual experience.
AML I was going to ask about the doors being shut - would that suggest the provision of assembly conditions? It would be an exercise to come together all in view of remembering the Lord. It is the Lord’s supper and we come apart on the first day of the week - “the first day of the week, we being assembled” (Acts 20: 7) - to remember the Lord. It is striking that it says, “and the doors shut”. In a way, of course, it shows how the whole Jewish system had to be set aside because it was a new era that had been introduced by the resurrection of Christ.
DlJK The doors were shut; then when He comes in He says, “Peace be to you”; and then in verse 21 He says it again. I wondered in relation to what was said if that is the difference between emotion and spiritual affection. Emotion might be excitement, anxiety, happiness; there might be all kind of emotion, but when it comes to spiritual affection, He can say, “Peace be to you”. I think there is a real thought of a settled condition when He comes in.
AJC The fear of the Jews would not have occupied their minds after the Lord had come in. They would have had a great sense of the peace. I was impressed with how He said that twice - “Peace be to you”. The Lord desires that we should be in conditions of peace, and we would not enjoy these things if we were fearful and occupied with things around. But we get a great sense of that peace and are able to be filled by the experience.
BRB Eyes were open. You mentioned earlier being occupied with Christ. In John 14: 19 it says, “Yet a little and the world sees me no longer”. Christ was going to leave them, and then He comes to His own. He says “but ye see me; because I live ye also shall live”. The key is being occupied before and during the meeting; so the glory was impressed upon me this morning, the glory that shines through Christ because of what He did for the Father. It is a matter of being occupied with the Lord’s things, an impression, a thought, so that indeed on Lord’s day morning our eyes may be opened.
AJC I like what you are referring to - “because I live ye also shall live”. We know what life truly is because the Lord is living, and we experience that. I do not think that is a natural kind of life we have, but life in a whole new order of things that we may experience in a totally different way. I think it is an eternal thought that His own are to be forever living in that way, which is quite something to think about and hard to comprehend, that the experience of life that we may have with the Lord with us, and the experience of life we have on Lord’s day morning, is an eternal experience that we will forever enjoy.
DgJK I have been impressed in the past with these two thoughts of peace. Do you think the first mention of peace is over against the fear of the Jews, and He would bring in the thought that there is peace even at the present time because He is there? But then the second reference to peace brings in the peace of another world that they can have part in, that they would never have had part in before. It is one thing to know in our circumstances that we come to a point where we know things are settled or finished, and there is a certain sense of peace; but testing things are going to come up again: there is going to be the turmoil and the unrest. But when He mentions peace a second time, it is a peace of Himself. That is one of His names - “Peace”, Mic 5: 5? That brings in something distinct for the disciples, that they were first of all to prove that there would not be unrest anymore, but also that there was One who was going to sustain them in that peace.
CJB He adds there, “as the Father sent me forth, I also send you”: is that what you are referring to - peace from another area of things?
AJC Isaiah speaks of His name being “Prince of Peace”, (Isa 9: 7); I think that is really helpful to see that there is a progression in this peace. It is interesting that the first time is as He appears, so He speaks of peace, but then He shows them His hands and His side. “The disciples rejoiced therefore having seen the Lord”; there was a recognition maybe that they had not initially had, and then He can say, “Peace be to you” again.
AML When He says peace twice, it may really be what is given to the assembly. Then as was referred to, He adds, “as the Father hath sent me forth, I also send you”; so it is all in view of the testimony which comes out in the Acts: the Spirit came and the assembly was formed. This first occasion is a special occasion, and Thomas missed it. Thomas may represent Israel and he lost this glorious occasion where the disciples can say, “We have seen the Lord”. Their heart was full of the living Christ.
MJK I was wondering in relation to what you mentioned about Him making Himself known - is the death of Christ required in relation to that?
AJC I feel like it must be required. He is made known in the breaking of bread, and we are reminded of His death in the breaking of bread. It is important for us to remember Him as the One that went into death, and then as the One who broke the power of death; and then we can move on to this thought and the recognition that He is ascended and risen. So, I would agree with you, but I would like some help on it.
MJK I think what you say is helpful because of the way the manifestation of Himself is given in John’s gospel. He could not have made Himself manifest to Israel or to any of His people prior to that, could He? The breaking of bread is associated with a Man who is indeed alive and ascended, but we could not be partakers in it outside the death of Christ. As to these two on the road to Emmaüs, I wondered if attachment or affection is what He appealed to. There is no question that they loved Him - it says they thought He was the One who had come to redeem Israel - but they thought He was dead. But the death of Christ removes everything that would stand between us and the revelation of God.
AJC They were downcast in their spirits, v 17. They were occupied with what they thought was the end. They were brought into something that was new and eternal. The experience of Lord’s day morning is so valuable. We might be occupied, and naturally we are occupied, with things that are here naturally, and for some reason on a Lord’s day morning things seem to go awry, a parent is trying to get things together and might be frustrated and occupied with things that happen; but then as we are brought together and occupied with the Lord; there is just a sense of peace and a sense of everything else fallen away. That might be too much of a natural thought, but we may be taken away to a place where none of these things are a burden and we can be completely occupied with the Lord Jesus as a living Man; and He delights to bring us into the presence of the Father: so we continue on in that elevated sphere.
MJK I think the first thing when we come together is in relation to the death of Christ but then there is energy and vitality that comes in. I was impressed with that in Luke 24 - “he made as though he would go farther”, v 28. I think they were spent. But the energy and vitality that was there was only then revealed in the breaking of bread - He made Himself known - and now that opens up a whole new area of things such as we see in John 20 where peace can come in. In other words, the death of Christ has set aside all those things that are burdening us; all those things that have so tried me throughout the week - the death of Christ has set that aside. Then we come and see a Man who is willing to lead us into the area of peace in which there is energy and vitality associated with Him.
AJC So that would involve our death with Christ. The natural side has died, is done away with, and we are just in the enjoyment of life.
DgJK Making Himself known is not just a passing glimpse, is it? Later on in John 14, Judas asks, “Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself to us and not to the world? Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him”, v 22, 23. I was thinking of that peace that He brings in, in John 20. There is a sense of His abiding presence, abiding love, abiding peace. Is that really what we are to prove on the Lord’s day? We are not able, because of our frailty, to sustain it for very long, but it gives us a view of what will be.
AML The Lord does not say, ‘peace’ to the two at Emmaüs in Luke 24, and yet He manifested Himself. They did not waste any time to be really set in liberty after they had an impression because they saw a Man out of death. But where they were was too limited; they had to go to the eleven and those with them. “Rising up the same hour” - that would be the vitality and liberty they were brought into. They were not told where to go; they knew what to do. That would be the touch of Christ, in a living way, that touched their hearts and moved them.
AJC The energy, the vitality that marked them is striking. I have thought before that a lot had happened during this day and they had travelled a good distance, I understand, and yet they had the energy and the desire and vitality to rise up that same hour and go back to Jerusalem. There was no question of fatigue or anything like that. The presence of the Lord had revitalised them, and they had this experience of their hearts burning.
AML What brought them back to the place that they had left early in the morning? They went from Jerusalem to Emmaüs but they went quickly back.
MJK John 20 is a different presentation from Luke 24. Luke shows that the eleven and those with them had come together, and then the Lord makes Himself known to them; He comes in to all of them. There is a settled condition brought in as having now seen the Lord as the One who had risen.
AML John 20: 19-22 is very special. There was no other occasion like it with the inbreathing; it links the disciples on to what was coming in the assembly.
PBK The Lord cannot stay away, when there are conditions there. The assembly has a glory, and that glory attracts Christ.
AJC It is a glory that is of Him, and nothing that we have in ourselves naturally. I was wondering if someone could help as to the Holy Spirit’s part in this too. The Holy Spirit would occupy us with Christ, and would help us through the week too. The Holy Spirit’s desire is that the Lord’s people should be in this condition where the Lord would desire to reveal Himself and come to us.
PBK Do you think that the Spirit and the bride are really joined in this? The Spirit would have to be the One who brings the Lord in, and the Spirit is identified with the bride. He is in each one who has accepted the Lord Jesus and received the Spirit; and that provides what answers to what the Lord is looking for.
DgJK When the Lord speaks about the importance of the Spirit, it was to prove that He was not leaving them as orphans. The Spirit would speak of Christ and He would bring the glories of Christ before us so that we would have a sense, always, of His coming to us.
AML Ephesians 3: 16 says, “to be strengthened with power by his Spirit in the inner man”. That would give us the strength to be able to join in the chorus of response that comes out in the assembly in Christ Jesus. We are dependent on the Spirit for that. Paul refers to the Spirit joining His help to our weakness, Rom 8: 26.
MJK In Luke 24, after the two go back, it says: “he himself stood in their midst, and says to them, Peace be unto you”, v 36. Is that a different occasion to John 20?
AML It is been said that John 20 is in the midst. Luke is in their midst.
MJK I had thought it was the same occasion, but I am asking. As far as the timeline goes, it was the same day. I understand the application you are making; the midst and their midst has two different connotations.
AML I think the account in John 20 refers to something very special because the inbreathing is there; and His hands and His side brings in thoughts of the assembly - it is very elevated. Thomas missed that.
AJC Could you open up the difference between the midst and their midst?
AML Their midst would be in a special place. We had a number of breakings of bread this morning - that might relate to what we have in Luke, different places, different houses. But the midst would relate to a universal principle.
CJB It seems that one of the features of the Spirit coming in in the Acts is that they persevered. I had not really thought about the assembly conditions related to that. Is that something that the Spirit brings in, assembly conditions? Paul reminds the Ephesians of that later in the next chapter; he says to use diligence. Is that something that we should be characterised by? They persevered and the Spirit came in. But we are to use diligence to keep assembly conditions and the uniting bond of peace.
AML Perseverance and using diligence are moral features which would be very much related to what is in the power of the Spirit. What you referred to in Acts, “they persevered”, really would be the maintenance of assembly conditions. The enemy has attacked that very much.
DAMcK I was just reading something in CAC. He said we would not need the breaking of bread if the Lord was here, Notes on Corinthians vol 32 p99. It is not that we have lost the Lord, but we have gained Him in a blessed way. I found that encouraging.
AJC I used to struggle with that thought. This is a dispensation in which the Lord is not here physically, but He does come to us and is with us; and that is a greater thought and a greater enjoyment than when He was actually here. He says, “It is profitable for you that I go away”(John 16: 7), so that the Spirit might come and that His own might have these experiences. It is quite something to think about that. He is not here physically but it is not that He has left us; as He said, “I will not leave you orphans”, and He comes to us.
DgJK It is a reminder that it is a distinct spiritual experience. You enjoy the company of a person when you are with them, but when they leave that is lost. But by the Spirit, that goes on. The Spirit is always speaking of Christ.
AJC Is that why it is a greater thought? The Lord is on high and the Spirit is here with believers, and therefore as the Lord is living, He can be in the midst. He is in the midst of the assembly; it does not matter where we are physically, if we are in the right conditions, gathered to His Name, the Lord would come to us. In this dispensation, that means that we are not governed by any of the measurements we have here in terms of distance or location. Those things do not come into play. It is on a completely different level and therefore we can experience the Lord’s presence.
MJK It is on our account that the breaking of bread has been given, is it not, so that we might be refreshed week by week? There has been no lack on the Lord’s side. We are drawn back to the point of His love and drawn in. “Their midst” is in relation to the persons. “The midst” is in relation to the atmosphere - what there is there substantially: it is found in Christ. The Lord on high and the Spirit here - that is the upper and the lower springs we are given access to, Josh 15: 19. Stephen had both, a man full of the Holy Spirit - he saw the Son of Man standing - that is the upper and the lower springs, Acts 7: 55, 56. There he was in the midst of being stoned, and he could have perfect liberty. It shows us what power there is in divine Persons.
CJB The Lord in the midst is different from our weekday experiences with the Lord? The Lord enters in a unique way as we enter into the service of God. Imagine coming from an area where the sacrament is issued by a priest, and then having the experience like many saints did in the recovery of the truth: imagine! Breaking bread and having the experience of the Lord coming into their midst - it is a wonderful area that we have come into.
DgJK How do you know the presence of the Lord?
AJC Is it when you have a sense of the peace we have been speaking about? From my own experience, it would be when we feel like we are drawn and entirely occupied with that. Everything else starts to fall away, and we recognise that we are completely occupied with Christ, and He is the Centre. As an older brother in London put it one time, we do not feel we can sit on our seat anymore; we want to be in response, and we want to welcome Him in praise and in worship. It is hard to put words to the experience.
DgJK I am sure our experience is all very similar in that way. It is very affecting to me the way we have been in smaller groups recently, yet it has not changed the presence of the Lord. He comes to us through the affections of the saints. We can be together with one or two; you sit down, and the hymn is sung that draws us all together. A brother stands on his feet and there is something distinct. It is not just as though you are having a conversation as you might with a brother or sister. There is something unique in the way that the affections are engaged.
MJK “Was not our heart burning in us?” - do you think that would be some sense of the presence of the Lord. Maybe we do not even recognise it at first but it is made known to us. Someone may stand on their feet, and you recognise something is going on in your own soul? It may be in relation to the same thing but it is drawn to light by what has been given to us.
AML It is difficult to explain in a natural way but when the Lord gives us a touch, might the Spirit give us a touch from a scripture coming to mind, or even a hymn that we have been singing? There was a brother who said it becomes living in our hearts and becomes precious. But it is an entirely spiritual thing; we cannot make a description of it in a natural way because the Lord appears, and our impressions are all different because our measures are all different.
AJC Maybe just one thing is said, but then the Spirit will use that and it will start to grow. We get a sense of that in the service of God, that one thing just keeps growing, and we get a greater and greater impression and sense of the greatness of God.
MJK We each have a different measure, but we also each have had different experiences. That forms us. I have had a different experience through the week than you have, but those things come together because God knows the whole. I wonder sometimes if I have enough appreciation of what others have had experience in - that I might get the gain of that as well as my own experiences. God uses those things to come out formatively in worship in the service of God.
AJC The Spirit, being God, knows that, and the Spirit is in you and me; so He can use that to create that experience.
DgJK The power of expression, or the expression of power is the same: by one Spirit.
CJB I would imagine trying to get an entire company of employees to be in the flow of things would require tremendous energy, time and difficulty. But in an instant our hearts can be unified by the Spirit, maybe by a hymn, word, or scripture. I was thinking about what was mentioned, that He opened up the scriptures to them - they must have become so living! “He spoke to us on the way, and as He opened the scriptures to us” - it is tremendous.
AML They were obviously affected by it, and they got the gain a bit later. It was overwhelming to begin with and He disappeared. The Spirit can lead us that way.
AJC In relation to us all having a slightly different experience or being able for something slightly different, that is an encouragement for the younger ones. I know I did not appreciate it as much when I was younger, and maybe did not have the same level of enjoyment. But just a small piece will sustain you and help you. I can remember sitting and thinking that I was not sure that I had that level of enjoyment, or maybe there was something wrong with me that I am not doing this right. But it is not about the measure; it is about the experience of the enjoyment of the presence of the Lord and it is not something we need to be worried about; it is not measured by those things; so the size does not matter. It is the enjoyment of the presence of the Lord.
DgJK The small boy with the five loaves and two fishes was the greatest contributor at that time, John 6: 9.
MJK I think that is helpful, for an encouragement for everyone young and old alike: do not diminish your own experience with God. I can tell you that largely our experience with God comes in time of distress, not when things are going well. I am not saying it cannot happen, it does, but largely it comes in time of distress. Why? Because we find ourselves incapable of moving forward in ourselves and we need help, then we cry to God. Those are marvellous experiences that help us grow inwardly for the glory of God.
AML “In pressure thou hast enlarged me”, Ps 4: 1.
Aberdeen, Idaho
19th July 2020
Key to Initials
(all local in Aberdeen):-
Brian R Beck; Colin J Brien; Adrian J Croot; Daryl J Klassen; Doug J Klassen; Michael J Klassen; Phil B Klassen; Anders M Lidbeck; Doug A McKay